Pix of Lions Mouth Green, Country Club of Charleston

[SPDB]

I applaud Silva and the club for restoring the course.

The club obviously knows what its getting into, but any toughening up of the Redan is unimaginable. I would
think that, to the extent the grade/slope of the hole has
softened over the years, it probably played similar to its
original incarnation due to increase in green speeds since
Raynor's days.

[RJ_Daley]

Here is what I mean about the approach on 14.  What is happening there?



Also, is anything being done with the double plateau 7th. I really liked that one too.

[Michael_Stachowicz]

The photo of from Mike Stachowicz doesn't completely convince me.  Are the two ramps up either side of the LM mowed to green height or fringe approach height?

I would argue that back in the day they probably didn't hand mow approaches and that is what the lines look like to me... hence the deduction that it is green surface.  I could be wrong.

That would actually be an interesting topic...how did they mow back then?

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, is there a date for that picture?  It is a beauty of a photo.  

I do think it is interesting (or a photo deception) that the construction photo would suggest the right side ramp is being widened by Silva, when comparing that photo with Turbo's and mine of the green before the resto.

[RJ_Daley]

I wish to modify something I said at the begining of the thread.  I had commented that I thought that if Silva was going to actually wrap the putting surface around the Lions Mouth, that he was taking too many liberties.  But, Jay advised that the evidence shows that SR actually originally designed the green with a wrap around putting surface.  I also came across that reference in the GCA.com write up of St Louis's 17 and the comment of comparing to the wrap-around of CCof C's Lions Mouth.

So, I want to reign in my comments.  If Silva found that the wrap-around is original intent, and he can make it work, then who would I be to sound and concern?

I have to admit, it would probably be so much fun that it may border on goofy golf.  We see that edge having been approached at the 17th at Tobacco Rd by Strantz.  And, I thoroughly enjoy that green.  Also, the boomer at Crystal Downs has that sort of quality, though different orientation.  And, as Huck noted, the 13th at Rustic is darn fun too.  So, I hope I'll get to see the completed work of Silva's sometime.  

Caveat:  there must have been a reason for reducing the green wrap around.  Was it maintenance cost, or ultimately, was it disfunctional?

[paul cowley]

If Raynor originally incorporated twin false fronts as part of the lions mouth green, that would have been neat....but if nowadays its mown as shortgrass approach, it would accomplish a similar design intent.......its hard to tell from the photos.

[TEPaul]

RJ:

Wait a minute. Are you saying that if Silva did something like that it would be suspect but that if he did the very same thing and then it was proven that Raynor did it then it wouldn't be suspect?

Hmmmm. There are some on this website who're concerned that some of these dead guys are glorified beyond reason and that example may be one reason why.  

[paul cowley]

I guess what I am trying to say is;

that in the renovation photo its obvious that Silva is either adding greenspace on the twin false fronts or adding additional greens mix and drainage in these same areas.

When I have studied the hole, [which is backed up by the other photos], they were not maintaining the approach areas that are being worked on as false fronts within the green itself.....but the greenspace did creep around the center bunker, but not to the extent shown in the construction photo.

...which leads me to two conclusions;

maybe they are NOT going to expand the green to include these false fronts and the additional greens mix and drainage is an attempt to firm up these areas, while still intending to maintain the green outside these slopes....or;

maybe they are going to expand the green down the approach slopes based on evidence they were once maintained that way.....which was much easier to do in the old days, when it really a simple decision of where do we mow the green to....a decision not complicated by USGA specs and agronomy and differing grass hybrid concerns etc...etc.

[paul cowley]

...and I'm with you RJ, the convolutions on #14 have always left me scratching my head....does anyone know something about these?

[TEPaul]

PaulC:

I'll say it again. It looked to me like the original "Lion's Mouth" on Fox Chapel's 9th green was far more interesting in look and to play. I think they're considering restoring it.

There appeared to be sort of a tongue of greenspace directly over the "Lion's Mouth" bunker and that appeared to be the case because the bunker was sort of skewed diagonally and to the left in the front of the green.

It looked like some giant delivered a massive left uppercut unto the poor Lion's mouth. How in the world one would get to that tongue of greenspace just over the Lion's Mouth bunker on that hole was the wonder of the whole thing. What a cool pin placement that must've been.

To me that "Lion's Mouth" green at Charleston looks like a massive angle food cake with the bunker serving as the baking ring in the center of the cake.

Maybe both Seth and Brian were just really hungry for desert when they designed that green in Charleston.

But Fox Chapel of Pittsburgh "Lion's Mouth" green----ah, now there is something really interesting to behold, and obvously to play. It looked like Seth may've been really pissed at animals when he designed it to make that bunker look like a giant delivered a swift left upper-cut unto the Lion's mouth.

Maybe some cat had just pissed on Seth's pant-leg.

[paul cowley]

...oh, and then when Seth was pissed he drop kicked the cat on its head and then while checking to see if the cat was still alive he got his idea about Fox chapel..........you know, you just might be on to something!

....a little OT, but do you know how a yo-yo works?
someone said you were an expert .[from one who knows].

[RJ_Daley]

Tommy Paul, you know you don't have to be dead to be glorified beyond reason here on GCA.com!

My comments, having played there, are about the actual function of the LM and if SR intended it to wrap around.  Now, I see there is evidence that he did have all or some of the tongues that wrap around mowed to putting green height.  I'll leave the designation to the expert, Silva to determine the extent of the wrap around.  

But, I do think that there is a line between restoring true original intent, and renovating the green to a point that maybe the original effectively evolved to for excellent playing conditions.  If they found that the tongues wrapped around too much, maybe by cutting them back a little, it was better.  Then, they might have gone too far and cut them back more until the whole concept was lost.  Could there be a happy medium?  

No matter what, it is one of the all time great SR greens I've seen.  It isn't as great as the 8th at Blue Mound, IMHO.  But, it is up there on a very short list.  So, I'm just backing away from saying that maybe Silva was taking liberties.  He should do what his research informs him.

[gookin]

TEP is right on the money about our old #9 green.  The Lions Mouth sat in the front of the green slightly right center. It was cut into the slope much like CCofC. The green came around on both sides.  Unlike Charleston which has a bunker edge level with the green, our #9 bunker edge was raised with a slight slope back to the green.  TEP loves the potential for random bounces for balls just clearing the bunker. The bunker shape was less round and lined up with a long spine which seperates the green into two sections with the left side about 2/3 of the surface and the other 1/3.  This restoration is at the front of the list in our long range plan.  With any luck it will be a project for fall 08.