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paul cowley

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Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« on: May 01, 2006, 08:57:27 AM »
Would you join a par 68 or 69? [or 67 even]....
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2006, 08:58:19 AM »
thats kind of a simple question...why bother?
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

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Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2006, 08:59:22 AM »
...I guess I'm just curious. I know how I would answer.
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Glenn Spencer

Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2006, 08:59:47 AM »
Wannamoisett-sign me up!!!!!!!!!
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Brent Hutto

Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2006, 09:06:45 AM »
Well, I wouldn't not join a club because the par of the course was under 70. It would depend on how varied and interesting the other holes were. For my puny game long Par 3's and short Par 4's are usually the types of holes that can really offer a lot of fun. Give me a course with three or four outstanding examples of holes between 190 and 320 yards and I would hardly notice if it has just having one or two three-shotters.
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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2006, 09:12:52 AM »
Does Rye offer overseas memberships? Par 68.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/rye1.html
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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2006, 09:26:36 AM »
sure
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

ForkaB

Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2006, 09:29:49 AM »
I did (par 67), and have never regretted it.
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Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2006, 09:39:58 AM »
Why not?

I prefer Stockholms GK (par 69, three par 5, six par 3) over the vast majority of the par 72 courses here in Sweden.

   
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A_Clay_Man

Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2006, 09:40:37 AM »
Paul,

For those that answer in the negative...Would the same reasons for not joining be the same if par were 77?

Mindsets are a terrible thing to waste.
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Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2006, 09:52:28 AM »
I belong to a par 69.  Only 1 par five.  Would prefer par 70 and two par 5's but there is no place to fit in another par 5.  It's not the end of the world if the holes you have are good ones, regardless of course par.  
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wsmorrison

Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2006, 09:56:53 AM »
Funny, Paul.  I've been thinking along the same lines.  Tom and I are looking once again at that property in Cecil County, MD.  Given the developers want to maximize the housing and the land itself (with river inlets and other natural features) dictates quite a bit where a golf course could go, what if the most interesting holes resulted in par below, perhaps well below 70?  Would the general population (we on this site are far from that) rather play 18 fine holes that don't add up or play 18 mediocre holes that do add up to par 70 or more?  Even more radical than that would be to consider less than 18 holes.  What if you could have a course with 15 or 16 very fine holes in the land alloted rather than 18 mediocre ones?  I am sure a developer would opt for the 18 and I can't say I'd blame him.  Its an interesting thought exercise.  
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David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2006, 10:00:26 AM »
I would prefer at least a par 70, but if the course were excellent, then I would still join if it were par 68 or 69, as long as the rating was in the 70-72 range or above...
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A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2006, 10:22:53 AM »
I wouldn't NOT join because it is below 70, but I would expect tough sledding in the market place for a new course built at a 68 or 69.  
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"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Brian_Ewen

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Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2006, 12:02:27 PM »
Even a par 66 .
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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2006, 12:11:47 PM »
Excluding the idea of ruining a great course to get par below 70 I think a par 69 is ideal (two 5s and five 3s).  However, I think it is just as important to have the SS and par about the same.  

Ciao

Sean
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Pete Stankevich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2006, 12:17:18 PM »
I live 15 minutes from the Country Club of Waterbury (CT) and would definitely consider joining it, par 69 and all.
If I lived in the southeastern part of Connecticut, I would definitely love to join any of 3 Rhode Island clubs,  the Misquamicut Club, Pawtucket CC, and obviously Wannamoisett (all 69's).  
Isn't there another great sub-70 par club in Rhode Island as well?
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TEPaul

Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2006, 12:37:48 PM »
Paul:

I don't know---it seems like a bit of a bummer, but someone mentioned Misquamicutt above and that's one of my favorite courses, period.

I like your idea of a course that may be a normal par 70, 71, or even 72 that can flex down to a par 69 or even 68 for the elite player crowd. Simple do another card, like my recommendation to do another card at NGLA making it a par 71 or even 70 for the elite crowd without doing anything to the course. (NGLA is a par 73)

I think that kind of thing would just be really cool to watch from a perception point of view about the quality of the holes that are flexing down.

This sort of thing reminds me of a story I once heard about footballer Jim Brown.

Some fan in Cleveland gave Brown a beautiful bolt of silk to have a nice suit made. Brown took the bolt of silk to his tailor in Cleveland who said: "Mr Brown, I can make you a coat or a pair of trousers but there's not enough silk here to make you a suit.

So Brown is on his way to play the Giants in New York and he takes the bolt of silk with him and goes to see a New York tailor and asks him if he could manage to make him a suit.

The New York tailor says: "Sure I can and I'll even make you a vest out of the bolt to go with the suit."

Brown says to the New York tailor: "How come my Cleveland tailor said he could only make me a coat OR a pair of pants but not a suit?"

And the New York tailor says to Brown; "Jimmy, maybe because in New York you're not such a big man."

Why don't you ask Davis if he shot a 70 on a par 69 course if he'd feel any different than if he shot a 70 on the same course if it was called a 71?  ;)


But I'll go you one better Paul. Just imagine if a golf course or golf courses had no hole pars, just a single round par.  ;)

Do you think that would feel any different and/or make any player play any hole just as good as he could considering the risks without some number in mind on every hole?

I do.

And in place of what the USGA now defines as "par"--eg "Par is the score that an expert golfer would be expected to make for any given hole", and transposed say Tiger or Davis to be the "expert golfer" and just used the expectation of what they would be expected to make for a single round as "par" for a golf course?

Then you really are down into the 60s for par on most all golf courses and the good news it wouldn't matter how or where on the course the so-called "expert golfer" got under par. ;)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 12:58:29 PM by TEPaul »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2006, 12:46:14 PM »
Paul,
There are some great ones out there (Wannamoisett and Rye immediately come to mind) but it would be a big risk building something like that these days.  Very good golf courses with the "standard" par are not even making it.  
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Pete Lavallee

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Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2006, 12:55:29 PM »
Great golf courses present a balance between holes which are hard and ones which are easy. Does it really matter whether I get my chance for birdies on par 5's or short par 4's? For a par 69 we are surely loosing 3 par 5's; but that could make the course tougher if they are replaced with par 4's that are over 450 yards. Par 68 seems to indicates 5 par 3's; this might be hardeer for the average player to score on.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 02:10:01 PM by Pete Lavallee »
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2006, 01:03:20 PM »
Mark....I guess that is why I asked the question because as TomP pointed out, not only has that become an option for many older courses with little room to expand, but also for new courses because of the extreme lengthening of individual holes.....split pars on holes are probably the best way to reconcile the distance gap between individuals and still allow the hole to best reflect its design intent.

I'm not sure most are ready for that but hell, if someone told me 20 years ago that people would willingly pay more for the bottled equivalent of a gallon of water, than for a gallon of gasoline, I would have thought they were crazy :o.
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2006, 01:15:12 PM »
Upminster Par 69, 6031 yards.  

Please call me first if you hear of any vacancies at Swinley Forrest. Par 69, 6062 yards.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2006, 01:39:25 PM »
The way my golf is headed, I would pay extra to join a par 68!  And I would probably have to, because a par-68 in the USA would have a hard time filling out a membership.

Yet, in the UK, there are examples like Rye and Swinley Forest and West Sussex and The Addington, all of which are TERRIFIC courses and perfect for a membership.
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Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2006, 01:42:05 PM »
I might be able to break 70 again.  ;D

TK
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would you join a par 68 or 69?
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2006, 01:59:07 PM »
Paul,
On a short course we just designed, each hole on our scorecard has what we call "Personal Par".  The kids (that is who will mostly play there) write in their own par on the card for each hole.  

Do you think when Tiger Woods plays a golf course, he really cares what the scorecard says as far as par goes?  I'm 100% sure he has his own "Personal Par" for each hole and my guess is that on most older courses that number is somewhere in the 60's.  

When courses start to be designed that are over 7000 yards long and the scorecard says par 68 or 69, how will people respond?  

The #2 hole at Wannamoisett says it is a par four on the card but as far I'm concerned it is a par five and the course is a par 70  ;)
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