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Lawrence Largent

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Kittansett Club
« on: May 01, 2006, 06:52:06 AM »
Thinking about making a trip up to the Kittansett Club for the Mid Am Qualifier in August. I was just wondering the groups opinion on the course for those who have played it. If you were flying in would it be easier to fly in to Prov. or Boston then just drive down to the area. The few pictures I've seen of the course look amazing with some holes being exposed and some tree lined. Any thoughts are encouraged I look forward to reading them.

Lawrence

Mark_Fine

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Re:Kittansett Club
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2006, 07:13:02 AM »
Lawrence,
I love Kittansett but for many it is a bit "underwelming" I think until you get to know it.  It doesn't wow you and the subtlies of the design need time to really be appreciated.  Fly into the airport where you get the best deal.  I've done it both ways.  The drives are not too different.  

wsmorrison

Re:Kittansett Club
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2006, 08:01:21 AM »
Lawrence,

You should drive up from TN; there are too many great golf courses along the way you should play!

I wouldn't use the term underwhelming when describing Kittansett. Although there are some holes that look plainer than they are, there are some standouts that are incredible.  The third hole either across water or sand (depending on the tide) is overwhelmingly good.

From Ran's review:



Another great par 3 is the long 11th with its memorable green:



You will not soon forget the terrific finish of 16, 17 and 18.  Maybe the best I've seen in New England.

With the new superintendent, John Kelly (formerly from Merion's East Course) is overseeing massive tree removals and a commitment to firm and fast (they have to overcome some drainage issues that have been problematic since the driving range was built) I think the course should really shine.  It is one of my favorite clubs in America.  I think Kittansett is an excellent course and Mark is correct that an understanding of the course, especially its subtleties and how it is designed with wind in mind becomes clearer over time.  The club itself is understated yet elegant in a way.  By all means go and enjoy.  I look forward to your comments.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Kittansett Club
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2006, 08:29:41 AM »
Wayne,
I agree there are some great holes but not all of them are standouts.  Even guys as knowledgable on architecture as Doak left the course underwelmed (he called it "in one sense a one-hole course, because the famous par 3 3rd is in a class by itself".  Though he called the other holes solid and with great balance, he didn't think too much of the rest and only gave the course a 6.  I like it more than he does though still only just notch it to a 7.  It would probably not make my personal top 100 list of the great courses I have seen.  On the other hand, Wannamoisett which is not too far away would!  Lawrence, I don't know how good your connections are, but I'd try to see that one while in the area as you will not be disappointed!
Both are great courses.  Have fun!
Mark

John Gosselin

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Re:Kittansett Club
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2006, 09:38:52 AM »
Wayne/Mark, Kittansett will be interesting to watch over the next couple of years with John kelly now being the superintendent. The last super was there for over 40 years and definitely had a certain way of doing things. He was very good, but I am sure John is taking a fresh look at things. John was my assistant at Rolling green for three years (97, 98, and 99) and he has a good handle on how certain maintenance practices can either detract or enhance the architecture of a great courses such as Kittansett.
Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

Mark_Fine

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Re:Kittansett Club
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2006, 09:50:25 AM »
John,
You are correct about the value of a good Superintendent on the presentation of the architecture.  I'll make it a point to swing by there again on a future trip.

wsmorrison

Re:Kittansett Club
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2006, 10:35:54 AM »
Mark,

I called it one of my favorite clubs in America, not courses.  Although I think the golf course is a solid 7 and maybe close to a Doak 8.  There is obviously some subjectivity involved.  The clubhouse and membership are so good that I am influenced by the entire experience.  I agree not all holes are great, but there are enough of them and the rest are all solid with the greens being all very good.  As I said, I believe 16-18 to be among the best finishing stretches I've seen though short of Merion's great finish.  It looks like 18 at Kittansett will be playing as a par 4 for the low handicap players.  There is some tee lengthening that is being done and considered that should keep the test of golf up to date.  Tom Doak thought it was a 6 and he can argue that very effectively I am sure.  I think differently.

I'm sure next time he returns, he will be thrilled with the course set up that John puts together including firm and fast with an effective tree management program that is more consistant with Gil Hanse's master plan.  Lenny Blodgett was the super for 43 years or so and did the club proud.  John Kelly will further his efforts and is gettting the course playing ideally.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 10:37:07 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mark_Fine

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Re:Kittansett Club
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2006, 11:27:33 AM »
Wayne,
I agree with you about the setting and the club in general.  It is a very special place.  I hope the wind is blowing during the tournament.  That really helps make the golf course and as others have said, is a prime defense.  

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Kittansett Club
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2006, 12:42:56 PM »
The disscussion of Kittansett is very interesting. Surely the course has been suberbly conditioned for as long as I can remember (almost 30 years since I first played there). I can remember attending the Mass. Am. there in the late 70's and without any extreme weather the course held up quite nicely.  Although the tree clearing that was acomplished under Gil Hanse is commendable, you could hardly say the architecture was chocked off by tree growth previously. The addition of the fescue to bunker edges and to out of play areas has certainly made the course more attractive, but more difficult and annoying for the lesser skilled players.

Kittansett derives much of its charm from the native scrub oak and pine which inhabit the Cape Cod region. With a growth of about 20 feet, they give the course a  miniature perspective, also allowing the wind to have maximum effect. It gives the whole course a feeling of being a championship design on a smaller than normal scale; perhaps this accounts for some less than glowing first impressions. The holes are not long and often the better golfer feels he can overpower the layout; instead he is slayed by the silence of her subtley.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2012, 06:42:17 PM »
I had my first round at Kittansett on Sunday. This spring, I've been lucky enough to play Newport, Kittansett, Belmont and Concord ... all very old New England courses and all very different.

The more I look back on it, the more I think that Kittansett might be my favorite of the bunch. The setting is absolutely spectacular, I love the shared fairways of 1 and 18, I love how interesting the routing is despite the negligible elevation change, I found the greens to be challenging but not brutal, obviously the 3rd hole is in its own stratosphere, the 16th hole is one of the best par 4s I've ever seen, and the mounding all over the place causes a blindness that is pretty cool. The only thing I didn't like is that most of the tee boxes point you into trouble, a trait that my pea-sized brain has trouble overcoming.

Newport to me feels much bigger and bolder than Kittansett (which has a very intimate feel). It is also great and one of my favorites. The 17th at Newport was a standout for me, which is ironic because it's an inland hole where the ocean isn't visible. I also thought the 9th was very cool with the huge cross bunker and the climb up to the clubhouse and the skyline green.

The surprise of the group was Belmont. I could play there every day and not get bored. It's really good. There are plenty of trees of the course, but it still feels open. You might get stuck behind one, but you really are never in danger of losing a ball. The course makes great use of big rolling fairways to give you plenty of uphill and downhill shots and keep you on your toes.

Concord, which I liked quite a bit, was 4th on this list of amazing courses. I liked the start, a pretty straightforward par 5 with a nice green setting, but the right angle par 4 2nd was odd, and there were just too many trees crowding play on the rest of the holes for my taste. It is still one of the better courses I've played, but wouldn't be in my personal top 20 (the other three definitely would be).

Anyway, Kittansett might be out of the way, but definitely worth the drive.

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2012, 10:50:31 PM »
Dan

  Spent two days at Kittansett last fall during the Flynn invitational. Fantastic par threes and wonderful medium length 4's. Wind plays a major factor. Great angles everywhere. To a man we loved the course and the maintenance meld was close to perfect. Vastly underrated.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Kittansett Club
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2012, 11:54:46 PM »
Lawrence,
I love Kittansett but for many it is a bit "underwelming"


That was my first impression,

But, the wind has a marvelous effect on the course and your play.


I think until you get to know it.  It doesn't wow you and the subtlies of the design need time to really be appreciated.  Fly into the airport where you get the best deal.  I've done it both ways.  The drives are not too different.  

John Foley

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2012, 02:35:08 PM »
Kittansett is just a great place - the course the old clubhouse the setting is just world class.

I think it has one of the best collection of par 3's around.

The work that Gil Hanse & team have put in over the years to thin / remove the trees - bring the greens back to original shapes and highlight the native area's has been phenomenal.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Mark Steffey

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2012, 09:16:51 PM »
the 11th green is CRAZY!!!!   holy cow.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2012, 11:08:46 PM »
John,

I haven't seen it post Hanse.

John Foley

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2012, 09:37:54 AM »
Patrick

I am assuming that all of the work I havae seen over the last few years (tree clearing / native area recovery & maintenance / green site expansion) has been done by Gil's long range master plan.

I may be wrong and it's the super (John Kelley) plan for doing it.

Either way the results are fantastic.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Bill Crane

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2012, 12:41:17 PM »
Mr. Morrison and I agree - one of WM FLYNN's best.  Charming place, true character, great shot values and a joy to walk as well. Watch the wind.

Was fortunate to play two days in a row a few years ago.  Out of the blue, got invited to a stag day the second day and we won.

Kittansett is still not well known beyond the cognoscenti, despite the ranking and hosting the Walker Cup among many other events.

Probably a great thing it is not on the other side of the Bourne Bridge since it would be mobbed.
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2012, 01:11:27 PM »
I'm pretty sure the changes are simply following through on the decision made years ago (with Hanse, I assume) to clear out the trees. My understanding is that they will keep chipping away at it year after year. The next obvious spot is the row of trees that divide 6 and 7. Opening up the inside of the dogleg on 6 completely changed the hole and made it significantly better.

They are also putting in a short game area just past the clubhouse, to the right of the 1st fairway and before the range. It's a great location only a short distance from the water. With a setting like that, I might actually be tempted to work on my chipping and putting. Looked like they were just about ready to sod it.

jonathan_becker

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2012, 01:15:10 PM »
Does anyone have photos to post?

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2012, 01:25:25 PM »
Sorry, no pictures from me. I almost always take some when I play a new course, but I was a guest and it felt like the kind of place that wouldn't be too psyched about it so I left my camera in the bag. If ever there was a place that would be great for photos, it is Kittansett. You'd be hard pressed to take a single bad picture.

John Foley

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2012, 01:48:20 PM »
Jonathan - here you go

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35681.msg722126.html#msg722126

what I am surprised is how long ago these are from!! Man does time fly

Integrity in the moment of choice

Anthony Fowler

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2012, 03:49:07 PM »
Kittansett is a great course, but it takes a few plays to really appreciate it.  The wind is a crucial part of the experience, so if you played it on a calm morning or if you only saw one wind direction, you haven't quite experienced the whole thing.  Obviously 3 is special, the par 3's are all great, and a lot of the holes have their own individual merits.  However, the best part about Kittansett is the the way in which the round is tied together.  The round is like a symphony that starts with a bang, slows down for a peaceful interlude through the trees, and then finishes with the same dramatic fashion that is started with.

I can document some of the changes that have taken place since those photos in 2008.  For starters, TONS of trees have come down.  When I first played the course in 2006, many holes were insulated from one another. You couldn't see 15 from the 5th, 11 from the 7th, etc.  Now, that has all changed.  The entire course has a more open feel.  One positive benefit is that you can see the water from many more places.  Also, the famous third green is now even more exposed to the wind and to golfers' views on 16.  The wind plays an even more important role than it did before, especially on the "inside" holes where you previously might have forgotten about the wind and the ocean.

Nature fortuitously took down the willow tree on the inside of the dogleg on 5 which has improved the appearance and strategy of the hole.  Previously the golfer had to play to the left side of the fairway to obtain a better angle.  Now, the player can challenge the marshland on the right.

A few bunkers are being repaired because of bad drainage and some new bunkers have been added for the tee shot on the 7th.  I believe the new bunkering on 7 is quite deep, so players will really have to think about their second shot and decide if they can clear the cross-rough.

The 13th hole has seen the biggest changes.  Over the past 80 years, trees had slowly encroached upon the right side, dramatically changing the playability of the hole.  In fact, with the old hole, you had to drive it at least 240-250 to even obtain a view of the green, so it was essentially a par 5 for many members.  If you leaked your tee shot even slightly to the right, you had not shot at the green.  Last winter, they rebuilt the right side of the hole according to Flynn's original drawings.  The trees were removed and some wonderful bunkering and mounding was put in their place.  You are still penalized for trying to bite off too much, but at least you have some chance of recovery, and the shorter hitters still have a chance to score.  In my view, 13 has become one of the best holes on the course. 

The only downside of the tree removal, in my view, is that the course has lost a little bit of that "symphony" experience that I previously described.  For example, the player used to drive it out of a chute of trees on 16.  That moment symbolized a dramatic return from the wooded holes to the exposed holes on the sea.  Now, you actually see the water on many of the wooded holes and the chute of trees is completely gone.  Also, they have removed virtually every tree on the seaside holes, and I personally liked the appearance of a few lone trees on that part of the course.  These are small critiques, because the changes overall have been great. 

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2012, 07:38:18 PM »
Years ago Heraldo Rivera bought the very impressive summer house just behind the 17th green. He assumed membership would be included. Imagine his dismay when only tennis privledges were extended!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mark Steffey

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2012, 07:41:38 PM »
seeing that huge house is always good for a laugh..  the wife got that in the divorce i believe, right?  (and is a member now)

good point made on the wind.  i played there a couple years ago with a decent player who was there for the first time.  we went out in the morning without a breath of wind..  by the 14th hole he was, "i don't see what the big deal is??  driver wedge, driver wedge.  i'd rather play the oaks (international)."

Tim Martin

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Re: Kittansett Club
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2012, 07:00:26 PM »
Years ago Heraldo Rivera bought the very impressive summer house just behind the 17th green. He assumed membership would be included. Imagine his dismay when only tennis privledges were extended!

That story must be told to everyone on their first trip around as our caddie put us in the know including that the wife scoffed it through the divorce. 17 is a very good hole that starts with a blind tee shot and approach into the prevailing wind to a horizon green. The bigger hitter may need to club down to a fairway wood off the tee to have the drive come up short of the hazard that runs across the fairway about 250 out from the back tee.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 07:29:30 PM by Tim Martin »