Is Jack a hypocrite at Muirfield Village?

[Doug Sobieski]

Most of us have heard the comments from Jack Nicklaus about the changes at Augusta, and how he doesn't really agree with them. Based upon the changes at Muirfield Village over the years (including this winter) is he being hypocritical? I just got finished playing there today, and the pros this year have a few more changes to deal with.....

- The first tee on #1 has been moved back 20-25 yards.
- #12, often compared to #12 at Augusta, has been lengthened. The new plate says 184! Unfortunately that tee was closed as they finish growing it in, so I didn't get a chance to play from there.

In addition, what about the change on #17 from a few years back? The tee shot must be played to an area surrounded by bunkers, with very few options. I'm told the players aren't too crazy about it. If the Tour were there today, into the wind they would have had to play to the right of the shortest fairway bunker, leaving a horrible angle into the green.

What about the line of bunkers down the right side on #18 (that you can't really see from the tee)? Do they force more players to play safely rather than make a decision? 3-wood seems to be a frequent play these days.

Many of the fairway bunkers that have been changed in the last few years are so deep that there are no options, and therefore no strategy.

FWIW, the rough is BRUTAL. I was only able to advance the ball to the green once from the rough, and had to pitch it out a short distance the rest of the time. Twice I was at my ball, stepped away a few feet, and had a hard time locating it again. Fortunately the members don't have to deal with that once summer comes around. The course plays totally different the rest of the year.

Anybody find it strange that Jack seems to be eliminating strategy? Or is it just his response to the fact that the ball won't be rolled back?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I'm literally out the door, but before I go.....

I don't know much of, if any of the changes at Muirfield Village. However, I do know that the designer of the original course was and will always will be in my opinion, Desmond Muirhead.

Jack can continue to discredit him till the day he closes his eyes, and since Desmond has closed his, I'll stick-up for him--I have ALL of the plans to prove it. Including the routing plan and it's hand drawn--in Desmond's hand, the changes on the course itself as well as plans for the ENTIRE development, houses and estates and condos and all.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:

I have a hand-drawn routing plan of Sebonack from my own hand, too.  And it looks surprisingly like the finished product, even down to the green-to-tee connections [supposedly contributed by Jim Urbina] and the bunkering.  But I can assure you that Jack [and Jim, too] had a lot of influence on the finished golf course and how it plays, even if the superficial drawing looks pretty close.

[Jim_Bick]

Tom Doak:

What a great, concise response. It should be interspersed between every post in the recurring flame war research threads about how someone knows what someone else thought 80 years ago.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy:

I have a hand-drawn routing plan of Sebonack from my own hand, too.  And it looks surprisingly like the finished product, even down to the green-to-tee connections [supposedly contributed by Jim Urbina] and the bunkering.  But I can assure you that Jack [and Jim, too] had a lot of influence on the finished golf course and how it plays, even if the superficial drawing looks pretty close.

Tom,

In another thread about Macro and Micro architecture I believe you commented that routing and the greens were the essence of the value of a golf course.

I don't doubt, for one minute, the contributions made by those you describe, but, once you established the routing, wasn't the die cast ?[/color]

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
Given the time frame, considering Nicklaus was in the prime of a illustrious career, where to be at the top of his sport, it required hours and hours of practice and practice and practice, and given that during the time, you could count the importance of golf designs on your left hand, I'll take my late whacko friend's opinion, which has been slighted time and time again.

I was fortunate to have many a conversation that turned into some pretty loud discussion regarding classic design with Desmond; how I thought he could have made use of more classic features, but many of his were in fact strategies learned from the Old Course. It was our one common bond to golf architecture and there wasn't a time talking with him on the phone or out to dinner that some sort of grand discussion of the Old Course took place.

I'm not saying that Jack didn't have anything to do with the design.  That would be completely untrue. I'm saying that it was once, much more Desmond Muirhead's course and work then it was Jack's. I've had numerous coversations, seen the pain and hurt of the man that was slighted. It bothered him to the day he died.

[Matt Kardash]

Tom,
Given the time frame, considering Nicklaus was in the prime of a illustrious career, where to be at the top of his sport, it required hours and hours of practice and practice and practice, and given that during the time, you could count the importance of golf designs on your left hand, I'll take my late whacko friend's opinion, which has been slighted time and time again.

I was fortunate to have many a conversation that turned into some pretty loud discussion regarding classic design with Desmond; how I thought he could have made use of more classic features, but many of his were in fact strategies learned from the Old Course. It was our one common bond to golf architecture and there wasn't a time talking with him on the phone or out to dinner that some sort of grand discussion of the Old Course took place.

I'm not saying that Jack didn't have anything to do with the design.  That would be completely untrue. I'm saying that it was once, much more Desmond Muirhead's course and work then it was Jack's. I've had numerous coversations, seen the pain and hurt of the man that was slighted. It bothered him to the day he died.

This whole debate is just a weird one. I mean, it is documented that jack made like 20 trips to Harbour Town. I mean, that's more than many designers do, and he was merely the consultant there. Therefore, I can only guess he was even more involved at MV. If that's the case, how is he at least not a co-designer?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Let me make it clear so you can past your confusion: I'm not saying Jack wasn't involved. They were partners. He had to be involved somehow. I'm saying that Desmond Muirhead was in fact the designer of the original Muirfield Village. That is FACT. You may not like it, but it is FACT. Yes, I'm sure Jack had a part in saying this owuld look great here, or can we do that there? But as far as design, I can vouch for Desmond enough to say that when you see his own, unmistakable drawing and chicken scratch on a routing plan, regardless of what you want to think, that should be proof enough.

[Jim Nugent]

I haven't seen Doug's original question addressed yet.  Is JN doing the same thing at MV that he condemns at ANGC?  

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

I haven't seen Muirfield Village lately, so I can't answer that question.  It wasn't nearly as wide as Augusta to start with, and the greens weren't as severe, so it isn't really a comparable situation -- but I doubt that Jack has narrowed it too much and planted trees because that's (still) not his style.

Tommy:

As for the "other" debate, well, clearly the test of "who designed something" is biased by whatever the observer thinks architecture is.  Here's a snippet from Jack about Sebonack from a recent interview:

"Tom focuses a great deal on the look, and I made certain to weave in good golf shots and strategy."

The tone of which can be inferred to mean that Jack thinks he had more to do with the "strategy" and playing character of the holes (the part that Tom Paul calls "designing up the holes") than I did, even though he also admits that the routing is mine; and that he thinks that's the most important part of design.  Of course, even on Jack's own designs, someone else really does the routing work and he edits and approves it, so his role at Sebonack was really not different than usual other than having to agree with me on some things.  

There are others who would agree with Pat M., when he says that when the routing was done, the die was cast, because a really good routing anticipates bunker positioning and greens contouring -- I am prone to that bias myself.  However, I can assure you that if I hadn't been involved after that point (or if Jack hadn't), Sebonack would be a VERY different course and likely the very features most people talk about would be different than they came out.

So, it really is a collaboration.  And I'm sure Muirfield Village was in just the same way.  I'm sure it pained Desmond Muirhead to talk about it because that project was considered his best work and he lost a lot of the credit for it over the years.  Luckily, even if Sebonack winds up being considered the best course I've worked on, I've got some other "solo" designs to fall back on.

[Tim Liddy]

It is interesting because Pete Dye, who was working with Mr. Nicklaus just before Desmond Muirhead, has always told me that he routed the golf course, except for the awkward 18th golf hole which was later moved because of the revised clubhouse location.

Also that Mr. Nicklaus know the ground very well because he had hunted on it many times in his younger days.

[Doug Sobieski]

 It wasn't nearly as wide as Augusta to start with, and the greens weren't as severe, so it isn't really a comparable situation -- but I doubt that Jack has narrowed it too much and planted trees because that's (still) not his style.

He certainly hasn't planted any trees. They've actually taken out a great deal. But they did do some substantial fairway narrowing about 6-7 years ago.

I'm not saying that he's going about it EXACTLY the same way as Augusta. I'm trying to grasp whether he is really improving the golf course or not. There seems to be a lot of lengthening the past few years, and the updated fairway bunkering is VERY penal. It just seems that a lot of the changes are dictating what a player must do, rather than giving them options and inducing thought.

#12 was terrifying to begin with at 160! I can't wait to see what happens at 184.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
I agree that much of the die is cast with a routing, that is unless your Fazio or Rees Jones or many others when given an open tab to create whatever they want, wherever they want, and I think we can both agree that type of architecture deserves itself. I could say a lot more about other player/architects, and you and I know which one does which and who tries to really excel at it. There is no doubt in my mind that Jack Nicklaus today loves designing golf courses. In fact, I'm not so appalled by them as some here. I think they always seem to have a lot of good strategies involved, are finely groomed with even a hazard or two to tact around for strategy. Maybe its that ultimate world dominance; the market dominance where the quality tends to falter that makes the ultimate difference.

Tim Liddy,
Originally Muirfield Village was going to be a Pete Dye design. From my fading memory, it was Jack's business manager at the time that changed that, strictly a money deal, which Pete had no intentions of being part of. Probably the best decision he could have ever made. This is when Jack & Desmond formed Golforce. (or whatever they called it) It seems like it was a much different business back then.

Desmond had a great respect for Pete and Alice. I can't say he had the same respect for the kids, but lets just say it was a higher level, much higher level of respect for the Jones family. ALL OF THEM.....

To hear him go on a tirade about them was quite amusing. Almost high comedy.

[Michael Whitaker]

It is interesting because Pete Dye, who was working with Mr. Nicklaus just before Desmond Muirhead, has always told me that he routed the golf course, except for the awkward 18th golf hole which was later moved because of the revised clubhouse location.

Also that Mr. Nicklaus know the ground very well because he had hunted on it many times in his younger days.

It is my understanding that the original routing for Harbour Town was done by George Cobb, who designed Sea Pines' first two courses.

From Hilton Head's Island Packet newspaper:

Although Sea Pines developer and Heritage founder Charles Fraser built the lighthouse to be a recognizable symbol, the original routing for the course wouldn't have used Harbour Town and the lighthouse as a backdrop for the hole. Architect George Cobb, who did the original course routing, planned for an 18th hole that ran parallel to the 10th, with the green stationed near the clubhouse.

Pete Dye and Jack Nicklaus, who worked off Cobb's routing when they designed Harbour Town, planned to follow that path, and Dye had reserved the small amount of land where 18 was eventually built for the par-3 17th.

However, as work progressed, the company responsible for building the Harbour Town Yacht Basin had nowhere to put the sediment it dredged and began depositing it along the coastline bordering the proposed 17th hole. According to Dye's autobiography, "Bury Me in a Pot Bunker," dikes were built to keep the sand in place, but they kept breaking. Soon, the sand had flowed out toward the Calibogue Sound, giving Dye enough workable land for a fairway. So, he reconfigured the 17th hole, re-routed the 18th and built what would become one of golf's most famous finishing holes.

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

That is correct, Pete told me himself that George Cobb had done the original routing for Harbour Town, and that only holes 17 and 18 were changed.

This was in response to someone's question about who deserved what credit for Harbour Town.  Pete replied that certainly Jack Nicklaus' contributions were valuable, but by the same token, Cobb did the routing; Alice Dye was around the whole time and it was her idea to design the 13th hole as it is today; Charles Price was around the whole time and it was his idea for the waste bunker on 16; so why not include all of them, too?  

OR you could just say it was a Pete Dye design, because he made the final decisions.  

Either credit would be right, but the Dye/Nicklaus credit is only right because Jack's name carries more interest than Cobb's or Alice's or Charles Price's.  Of course, Jack would disagree with that, but even with his 20 days on site he wasn't there as much as Alice, or probably Cobb or Price either.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

So Tom, this means your finally going to be taking a well-deserved credit for the Stadium Course?  

See, all this time of claiming you had never designed a course in California up until Stone Eagle, and it was there all of the time!

[Matt_Cohn]

Attempting to answer the question...!

Jack has probably done something similar at MV to what they've been doing at Augusta. The difference is that Augusta was something completely unique before they started changing it. MV was special but already had rough, trees, regular-width fairways, etc. Jack's changes don't completely change the character of MV the way that the changes at Augusta do completely change that course.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:  I agree, and you said it better than I did.

[Doug Sobieski]

Attempting to answer the question...!

Jack has probably done something similar at MV to what they've been doing at Augusta. The difference is that Augusta was something completely unique before they started changing it. MV was special but already had rough, trees, regular-width fairways, etc. Jack's changes don't completely change the character of MV the way that the changes at Augusta do completely change that course.

Matt:

Great response, and you can't really disagree with that! I appreciate your feedback on the topic

I'm still trying to figure out if the phrase "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" or "the pot calling the kettle black" applies.

By the way....

At one time MVGC had probably the widest fairways on Tour. if you looked at the stats at the end of every season, the leader for most fairways hit in a 72-hole event nearly always came from the Memorial (and was often 56 out of 56). That width is definitely gone.

Regards,

[Jim Nugent]

Doug, do you mean 54 of 54, or 56 of 56?

[Doug Sobieski]

Doug, do you mean 54 of 54, or 56 of 56?

Thanks, Jim! Yes, I meant 56 of 56.

[Matt Kardash]

Tom,
I didn't mean jack should get a co-design credit at harbour town. I don't know what i was getting at, but it wasn't that  

[Michael Whitaker]

Alice Dye was around the whole time and it was her idea to design the 13th hole as it is today; Charles Price was around the whole time and it was his idea for the waste bunker on 16; so why not include all of them, too?

And, you might have to throw in a little Donald O'Quinn...

A young Jack Nicklaus, Donald O'Quinn, Charles Fraser, &
designer Pete Dye, pondering a hole at Harbour Town Golf Links.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Cohn,

How do the changes at ANGC "completely change the course ?"

[Joel_Stewart]

I didn't think of Jack being a hypocrite during his talk in November when he talked about ANGC and thought Muirfield was the underrated course on the Golf Digest list.

I did think that Palmer was full of himself when he also dished ANGC but then talked about his changes to Pebble Beach and how he is trying to make the course better.