Apache Stronghold Update

[Jim Nugent]

Could you get good or decent lies in the fairways?  Or was that a crapshoot?  

[Bryan Izatt]

I played it in December and felt it was worth the trip.  Played TSN the next day and, of course the conditions and service were better but I thought AS a much more interesting and fun course.

In December the course was absolutely dormant except for tees and greens.  Buiscuit brown as Jay would have it.  I didn't notice the back nine being dirt.  I liked the back better than the front.  More interesting holes.

Here are some pictures from that time.  First a tee.  A bit patchy but quite playable.  And how is that bunker not interesting?



Then a fairway.  This was the 4th I think.  Totally dormant.  Up close it looked like Darren's last picture without any green sprigs.  I found it a firm and very fast surface to play.  The ball set up nicely.  Of course you ended up with a lot of hay in your shoes.  Certainly nowhere near the worst fairways I've ever played.  Better than soggy clay any day.



And the greens, next.  They were bent, and I thought they played as well as any in the Phoenix area.  Some including the one in the photo had small areas that had been resodded (bottom left corner).



Finally here's a picture of why probably there are buried piplines around the 5th green.  A stuck valve and a flooded green.



You can see from the progression of photos from Dec, Mar and April that the fairways are just now coming out of dormancy.  If they continue not to overseed the fairways in the winter, then those that are offended by dormant bermuda should restrict themselves to playing there in the summer when the bermuda is alive, rather than burying the course.  Anybody got summer pictures?

If AS had the conditioning of other Phoenix courses, would it be the best of the public access courses?

[Darren_Kilfara]

I have other pictures from my trip (which didn't make it to Jim on my first mailing), but they pretty much show what I've already showed, so there's no real point in piling on unless anyone really wants to see them.

Brian, I played other courses in Scottsdale during my trip with fairways that were just coming out of dormancy, but they looked and felt a lot better than AS! In truth, it wasn't difficult to find playable lies on the AS fairways, at least for someone who isn't desperate to nip the ball cleanly and get a lot of backspin with his irons, but I wouldn't want to kid myself and say that they were anything more than barely tolerable. What was really bad for me were the greens, which were so sandy that I could hit a driver into the par-3 17th and have it stick within a foot or two of where it landed. (That happened both times I played the hole, btw.) Now, I've played plenty of good courses which are typically well-maintained where they've topdressed the greens and they were sandy and exhibited similar characteristics, so I'm willing to write off my experiences on that front as a one-off - the greens at AS do have a pretty good reputation.

Anyway, I guess the real point is that the conditions are very variable at AS - on some trips you might get lucky and find the greens in excellent shape and the fairways at least borderline playable, on others you might not. There's plenty of interesting architecture to be found, so a lot of posters here will find a trip into the desert worth it, although the design isn't *that* interesting. (I read in another thread where someone praised AS strongly for being "perhaps Doak's most natural course", which to me falls somewhere between wishful thinking and outright self-denial - it's not like perfect maintenance would suddenly morph AS into Pacific Dunes or anything.) But to belatedly answer the Huckster's question, do NOT invite your pampered, non-GolfClubAtlas friends out to AS, because they'll absolutely hate it.

Cheers,
Darren

[Craig Sweet]

This is quite a contrast with Circling Raven, the Indian casino/golf course in Northern Idaho.

http://www.golfcirclingraven.net/

[wsmorrison]

Did anyone that visited Apache Stronghold seek out the superintendent and ask him about the state of the course and what was being done to remedy problems?  I think we would all benefit from hearing it from the on site expert, the superintendent.  I like meeting the supers on the courses I visit.  They usually are the keepers of historical materials (classic courses) and are happy to discuss everything you want to know and are capable of discussing a whole lot more.  I encourage those that are interested in all matters dealing with golf courses to chat with the superintendents, you'll learn a lot--the first being how little you know    Anybody on a green committee owes it to himself and his club to constantly learn all they can.

One of the many things that Tom Paul has been seeking is to define and educate golfers about healthy and distressed turf, dormancy and dead grasses and how to know the difference.  Tom and I had a real nice explanation by Mike McNulty at Philadelphia Country Club last summer.  As most in the northeastern part of the US know, this was an especially bad summer--high heat, high humidity and lots of rain.  Courses were dying left and right.  Mike showed us what was dead, what was in last stages of dormancy, what was in earlier stages of dormancy and what was healthy.  This was invaluable.  I don't know the situation at Apache Stronghold (as Matt Ward reminds us) but I do know there is a real misconception about the state of turf in general.  We need to understand grasses a bit better and know their lifecycles so that we know what we're looking at.  I know dirt is dirt and you can't get around that if much of the course is in that state, but grasses can look a lot worse than the state of their health is.  Complicating that is the variations in types of grasses.  There's lots to know and I'm glad there are experts out there that are willing to help educate us.  

[Craig Van Egmond]

Wayne,

            Don Mahaffey's brother was the super at AS for a while and he was nice enough to post updates on the turf issues and what was being done about them.

Over the years there has been some discussion about soil conditions, poor water, bad grass choices, owner indifference, lack of skilled workers, etc. So its pretty well documented if you can find the threads.

[Bryan Izatt]

Darren,

Which other courses did you play that were coming out of dormancy?  I played six other courses and they were all overseeded, to a greater or less degree of success.  We-ko-pa overseed was good, Gold Canyon less so.

Sadly, you seem to have played the greens when they were topdressed.  They were fine in December.  Luck of the draw, or I guess you could call and ask before you go, and save a 2 hour drive.

There were some holes that I thought were mundane 1 and 10 for instance, although even on those I could see some architectural features.  Others like 13 and 6 I thought were world class - 13 especially.

[Bill_McBride]

Bryan, I'm really surprised to hear you say you felt #10 was mundane.  I think that split fairway with the narrow left fairway and wide but distant right fairway, combined with the huge rollercoaster green, made for a super long par 4.  The center creek/bunker was a definitely daunting obstacle, as I found when I picked a line a bit too far left and couldn't carry.

[A_Clay_Man]

Wayne, I concur with that second paragraph above
 and believe the mis-perceptions that many have is
 why I jumped on the tolerable comment, from Matt.

As for the 98'(?) Doak design; I can honestly say that
 because of playing Apache Stronghold, when I get to a
Doak hole that has some semi-blindness,
 I now challenge that blind area and am
rewarded my frst time around. It's an integral design experience, if one wants to learn what makes the man
(and crew) tick, despite conditions.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Craig - talk about apples and oranges! Is anyone insinuating that the problems with AS stem from the fact that it is on an Indian reservation? I think we're talking about a location where it's difficult to grow turf, period...

Brian - I played the Outlaw course at Desert Mountain, and the Desert course at TPC Scottsdale. The former was in pristine condition, and even the latter was in much, much better shape than Apache. By the way, I thought #8 was by far the most mundane hole on the course; #13, while decent enough, was nothing like my favorite hole out there, and in fact the guy I played with in the afternoon called it his LEAST favorite hole on the course, on account of the unnatural mound to the right off the tee. I thought #5, one of the holes I really liked out there, was a much better and more interesting long par 4.

(By the way, I wanted to see the course regardless of the conditioning, so there would have been little point in phoning up "to save myself the two-hour drive" - in fact, the two-hour drive, or more like the 90-minute drive the way I operate , was a highlight of my time in Arizona!)

Cheers,
Darren

[Bryan Izatt]

Bill,

Perhaps I don't remember 10 clearly.  It didn't make a positive impression on me obviously.  I remember it as flattish and gradually uphill.  I didn't remember the split fairway.

Darren,

I also played the Desert course at TPC, at least the front nine before jumping on a plane.  Sure it was in better condition, but it was overseeded wasn't it.

Different strokes for different folks regarding preferences in holes.  I'm surprised that your friend thought the ridge on 13 was unnatural.  I remember it as pretty large.  Would Doak move that much earth on that site?  Anyway I liked it with a blind fade required off the tee, followed by a long iron draw around another ridge to get at the green, and a wonderful 3 puttable green complex.  Five also was a good long par 4.  Made easier the day I played by the firm  and fast conditions and a 300 yard drive.

[Matt_Ward]

What's really amazing is the slack people give to AS and frankly it really is tied to the architect of the course -- Tom Doak. No doubt Tom did a stellar job in the quality of the holes you find there and as I opined previously -- the collective routing takes you through the entire property in a fine manner.

The issue is simply one of having conditioning that ties together all the design attributes that are present. AS has never really had a consistent presentation and thus, in my book at least, it is flawed -- possibly even seriously. When people say I am advocating Augusta like conditions for AS they are miles and miles out of touch with my reasoning. I simply said that conditioning plays a meaningful support role and if a consistent floor is not available on a steady basis when the course is opened I then believe one must account for that in the total overall perspective.

Management at the facility simply is clueless on how to iron out these issues and get the place to where it can be a "must play" alternative to the often empty designs you find in Maricopa County.

[George Pazin]

You guys are spoiled. I play public courses in worse condition all the time.

Matt, it's just quite possible the reason people cut AS some slack is because of the design, not simply that Tom D's name is attached.

Hope it lasts long enough for me to play it.

P.S. to Craig Edgmund - I think Darren was addressing Craig Sweet, in regards to insinuations.

[Tom Huckaby]

Very well said, George.

I'd sure take that over the waterlogged quagmires we have all over the place out here these days.... Hell even in the summer they're still way too lush, way too wet.

TH

[Darren_Kilfara]

Craig Edgmand - I was indeed talking to Craig Sweet, as George correctly inferred.

Tom/George, there's a place for "any day on a golf course like AS is better than a day at the office/a day at the rubbish courses I play on at home" sentiment, but I think that sort of attitude kinda misses the point here. There is something wrong with the conditioning at AS...sure, you can have fun there even with the conditions that there are at present, and I would recommend the AS experience to you guys, but that doesn't mean there aren't problems that are worth addressing.

Cheers,
Darren

[Craig Sweet]

Darren, do you think its that more difficult to grow grass in Arizona than it is in Northern Idaho?  

I have never set foot on AS, but considering its connected with a casino, I would think more money would be in the maintinance budget.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Darren,

    As Emily Latella used to say "Never Mind" .  

[Bill_McBride]

Bryan, here's the club's website with the course layout - check out #10.........just click the link.  I thought it was a stellar par 4, one of the best of a good lot that starts with #2.  The left fairway looks a lot smaller and was, but you didn't have to carry the central creek/bunker.

http://www.apachegoldcasinoresort.com/images/courselayout8.jpg

[Bryan Izatt]

Bill,

Got it, thanks.  For whatever reason the central bunker didn't register.  Maybe the 8 courses in 7 days thing.  As I recall, looking at the layout, I think I hit a low running hook up the left edge and had a relatively short iron in.  So maybe it didn't register because I didn't engage the feature.  I do remember the green being a sort of dell green, although I think it was more accesible from the left side where I was.  Such are the hazards also of only playing a course once.  I didn't get  a picture of it, so I can't refresh my memory.

Based on the layout it looks more interesting than I remembered.  I'll concede the point to you.

[Bill_McBride]

The bird's eye routing plan is very interesting.  It looks like there are several places where a layup might be more productive than a long ball.  #16 is one example as it's a 90* dogleg.  The shorter tee shot to the narrow left fairway on #10 is another.  Lots of doglegs.

Anyone who has played Apache Stronghold and thinks the architecture is ho hum needs to study this routing plan a bit, recall the topography and use of natural features, and reconsider!

That's the reason you can put up with less, even significantly less, than optimum conditioning.

As Sean Arble says, that's not unusual conditioning for great courses like Pennard for example.  And I don't think anyone has criticized the greens.

[Tom Ferrell]

I played AS today (Thursday, 4/27).  After rounds yesterday at Chapparal Pines and this morning at The Rim (and looking forward to Silverleaf in tomorrow a.m.), the conditions did strike me as deplorable.  But sometimes it pays to look a little further.

The greens are, for the most part, fine.  The transition to Bermuda fairways is spotty.  It's tough to play the ball down.  The drainage on the course is terrible - most bunkers have soggy bottoms.  I am one who fully believes that too great an emphasis is placed on conditions these days.  However, Apache Stronghold badly needs to get its conditioning act to a competent level, or it is a very real possibility that it will go NLE in the not-too-distant future.  The tribe would do well to consider an experienced management company.

That said, my buddy and I had more fun at AS than we did at either of the perfectly manicured courses we played in Payson.  The options, challenges, playability and demands of Apache Stronghold are invigorating, entertaining and thoroughly enjoyable.  By the third or fourth hole, we were just rolling with it and having a blast.  From that point on, the only time we really paused and shook our heads was at the 10th, the fairway of which is basically lost at this point.

This course can and should be saved.  It is a tremendous golf experience.  But it's going to take some serious effort and serious money to pull it out of the fire.  I plan on developing a feature about the plight of AS, and I'll try to get some people in the place to comment directly on how they view the future.

In the meantime, I paid $40 and don't feel in any way that I didn't get my money's worth.  We had a great time.

TOM

[Tim Pitner]

As Sean Arble says, that's not unusual conditioning for great courses like Pennard for example.  And I don't think anyone has criticized the greens.

There may be a difference between playing on the brown links turf at a course like Pennard and playing on the bone dry ground of the southwestern U.S.   I haven't played AS, but if there isn't much grass in the fairway (along with other maintenance issues), it seems like it might not be that enjoyable of a round.  I'm not insisting on pristine conditions.  Hopefully, the course will come around a little because it looks like a gem.

[Rick Shefchik]

This discussion reminds me of that scene in "Casablanca" where Rick tells Inspector Renault why he came to Casablanca. In the case of Apache Stronghold, the dialogue might go something like this:

MW: How could you let such a wonderful golf course deteriorate so badly?

AS: We expected the area's abundant annual rainfall to take care of our irrigation needs.

MW: What abundant annual rainfall? You're in the desert.

AS: We were misinformed.

[Doug Wright]

I've played 72 holes on the course (36x2 in April 2003 and April 2005). The conditions were "OK" the first time and less so the second time last year--pretty spotty fairways, though perhaps not as bad as now. The greens have always been decent, and IMO that is much more important than fairways that are spotty or even dirt, which I could live with for an occasional visit. In any case, I really think the design and routing are first rate. Just reviewing the greensites, I think #2 across the wash, the par 3 3rd and #4 in the saddle are fine greensites on the front, and the stretch of greensites from #11-15 plus #17 are very good also. There's a terrific variety of holes as well, such as the short #4 and driveable #6 that bracket the long and tough #5 with its superb green on the front, and the excellent #13 with two very good par 3s in #11 and #17 on the back. Even in the most perfect condition, it isn't Pacific Dunes but there is plenty of interest there, regardless of conditioning, for me to return from time to time when I'm visiting the Valley of the Sun.

Plus both times I've been there I've almost had the place to myself, which I attribute in part to the spotty conditioning--so spotty conditioning ain't all bad...  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Craig,
I'm going to answer your question about growing turf in AZ vs ID.
First, globe AZ is high desert; I believe the elevation is between 4k-5K. It's cold in the winter, hot in the summer and very dry. The water quality is OK by AZ standards, but terrible by standards in the NW US. Globe is in an area where there are pros and cons for the use of either cool or warm season turf. Warm season is the safest bet, but it will not break dormancy until soil temps are in the upper 50's and that could be late May or June-yet the first frost is usually in Sep. Cool season turf takes more $$$ and knowledge because the water, soils, and summer weather are all very difficult challenges. AS is in an area where quality turf does not come easy-throw in poor management and there you are.

While I've never grown turf in ID, I have worked in Central OR. No doubt the weather extremes are greater in ID, but I doubt it's quite as challenging to grow quality turf there as it is in AZ. However, I'll concede that difficult microclimates exist in every region and this type of question could be debated forever. I will say this, IMO, Bend, OR is the easiest place to grow quality turf I've ever seen in the US. Great water, decent draining soils, and a perfect summer climate with almost no pest pressure. No comparison to the challenges in Globe, AZ.