Apache Stronghold Update

[Jim Dawson]

Just returned from Phoenix and played two rounds at Apache Stronghold.
We played there last November also.
What a difference with the bermuda betwenn dormant and growing.
I thought the course was in better shape this spring. It is not in the condition of Whirlwind or Gold Canyon, but not a trash heap either.
The vistas with the contrasting grass make for some of the best desert golf views, add in that the design is great and you have a must play. Only $75.00 for 36 holes.
Wondering if anyone else has played recently and what their thoughts are.
Thanks,
JD

[Ryan Farrow]

If i had a car out here at school, I would be the first to tell you.

[David Kelly]

Jim,

Thanks for the update.  I'm always worried about the state of Apache Stronghold as it is one of my favorite modern designs but this is good news.

[ed_getka]

Glad to hear it still exists. I really want to get out to see it before it disappears. So many courses, so little time.

[Darren_Kilfara]

I played AS twice at the end of March and am not nearly as sanguine about the conditioning. I don't know if it's better than it used to be, but it was still pretty bad - the greens were covered in sand (which I suppose might have been a maintainance technique) and looked pretty cut up in places, and the fairways looked like the cut portion of a cricket pitch, with very little alive green grass and lots of dead brown grass. I very much enjoyed the design, although perhaps not as much as others here have in the past, but the conditions made it tough to fully enjoy or appreciate the experience.

By the way, I took lots and lots of pictures...if someone is more technologically adept than I am and would like to upload some of them here, I can e-mail them to you.

Cheers,
Darren

[Ryan Farrow]

Darren i could help you out with that.    rfarrow22@yahoo.com







Maybe I can even make the grass green for you.

[Matt_Ward]

Without downplaying what Jim has added I have to say the term "improvement" is indeed a relative term.

I've been to AS no less than three times -- the first visit coming soon after the opening and it was only that particular visit that turf conditions were tolerable.

The other two times were far from that.

I salute the facility for making such "improvements" but I will need to hear from a good number of people before my next trek to Globe. The stock on AS, at least for me, is really in the dumper and needs to clearly demonstrate that the marriage of turf improvements is at the same level as the unique design.

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Yannick Pilon and I went to play Apache Stronghold this past Sunday (the 24th).  We were very dissapointed, to say the least.

Obviously, after having played Riviera, Rustic Canyon and Talking Stick the previous three days, we'll give Apache the benefit of the doubt knowing that it was up against some incredible competition, but....

The conditions of the turf were truly TERRIBLE.  Worse than some of the cow pastures up here in Quebec after a bad winter.  It was very surprising and dissapointing.  As for the design, while there were some unique and interesting holes, the overall impression was underwhelming:  "Not bad" , even "good" in places, but nothing worth the trip.

However, we had a wonderful time on Saturday evening with Jim Dawson and his rowdy gang in Phoenix.  Thanks again for dinner, guys.  Hope to see you in Montreal!

[Jay Flemma]

Nice to hear about the comeback.  The course deserves it, its a terrific deisgn.  What a set of green complexes.  Amazing routing tricks too...great strategic use of the dry washes as diagonal hazards.

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

Hold the phone partner -- we get one message from a person who says the course is doing such and such but there are other messages that say it really has not improved that greatly.

Before people start the GCA spin cycle -- it's high time more reports come along to confirm anything.

AS has plenty of "potential" but I can drive a truck past the number of courses that say likewise.

I've been there 3 times and frankly the folks running the operation need to understand that they need to a mega makeover and marketing campaign to demonstrate that they truly "get it."

[A_Clay_Man]

More reports aren't needed.

It breaksdown according to the sensitivity of the individual's interest in either having fun, or, checking out some Semi-minimalist GCA. Or, Those swayed by the lack of consistent conditions, who, IMO have been heavily influenced by the continued televising of that springtime eastern Georgia event and are biased against anything they deem as poor conditions.

The golfers who comprise the "golf club" at Apache Stronghold, love their golf course. When I saw the smiles on their faces, it showed me how fortunate they are. Tolerable conditions indeed.

[Darren_Kilfara]

As bad as the conditions were, I'd still consider driving out into the desert to play it again if I return to Phoenix anytime soon. For one, the drive out there is more amazing than I'd expected (and I'd expected a lot) - truly beautiful. For two, the price - 36 holes for about $70 - can't be beat in the area, and there's virtually nobody out there on the course to get in your way. The architecture alone isn't spectacular enough to get me out there, but the overall package is pretty good...at least for someone like for whom turf condition is only a small part of what I'm looking for in a golf course.

Cheers,
Darren

[Tom Huckaby]

Darren:  now THAT is what I wanted to hear.  I too don't need Augusta conditions, but if it's completely unplayable that's another thing.  As long as one can reasonably putt the greens, that's in the end all that's gonna matter.  

But riddle me this:  would you as trip organizer take a group of guys out there for whom conditions DO matter?  As much as I personally want to play there, I've avoided it like the plague for my college-buddies trip, as great as the price is and as much as typically a casino and a golf course is all these guys need.  I just haven't wanted to risk the crap I'd get as they rant about the goat-trek I brought them to....

TH

[Andy Hughes]

But riddle me this:  would you as trip organizer take a group of guys out there for whom conditions DO matter?  As much as I personally want to play there, I've avoided it like the plague for my college-buddies trip, as great as the price is and as much as typically a casino and a golf course is all these guys need.  I just haven't wanted to risk the crap I'd get as they rant about the goat-trek I brought them to....

Tom, I venture to say you already know the answer to that question!  I risked the same thing several years ago when I took our group to Pinehurst.  I booked us onto Southern Pines the last day of our trip, and the conditioning was, well, not as nice as Tobacco Road or Mid Pines or others we had played.  I am glad we played there because I personally enjoyed the course, but the feedback afterwards made it clear I was pretty much alone in having any desire to return.

[Tom Huckaby]

Andy - thanks.  It's for this reason that if I get to AS, it will be with other folks from this site or going solo.  

 

[Andy Hughes]

Andy - thanks.  It's for this reason that if I get to AS, it will be with other folks from this site or going solo.  

I hear you loud and clear. Its always a juggling act when you are the trip planner, at least for me--what would please everyone vs what you want to do!
On the plus side, at least I have made sure I am getting 4 rounds of Strantz golf on our Spring trip, so there IS an upside to being in charge  

[Andy Hughes]

Back to Apache Stronghold, I do look forward to Darren's pictures. I am never sure what everyone else's standards are when it comes to conditioning.

[Jim Dawson]

Just a recap to my original post.

If all one wants is to pay upwards of $150 per round and have perfect conditions, AS is not for you.
Could the condition be better? Absolutley.
Sometime you have to look deeper to find enjoyment in golf.
As the saying goes "Golf is not a game of perfect"
Just being able to play a course with no homes for about $2.00 per hole is OK by me
My golfing buddies want to take it off the list, but a long as I am in charge it stays.
Thanks for the feedback,
JD

[Jim Dawson]

Andy - thanks.  It's for this reason that if I get to AS, it will be with other folks from this site or going solo.  

 

Tom,
I'll go to AS anytime with you.
JD

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Hold off with the inane idea that those clamoring for improved turf conditions at AS want some kind of equivalence to what one sees with the Masters. That is rubbish and I would think someone of your brainpower would understand that that is not the point being made by thoe advocating for such improvements.

I've played the course three times -- I don't want to play a place -- any place -- that is simply languishing on that front. AS is simply badly managed and the inability to have some sort of modest consistency is what is troubling.

Jim D:

C'mon -- please let's get a bit more accurate in defning what the detractors of AS are saying. I love the layout but I don't consider turf that has more in common with dirt than grass to be acceptable. I play real golf over real turf -- not the CONCEPTUAL kind  alone where you look at layouts of holes and then proclaim them to be so special irrespective of what kind of shape the turf is in.

I know how to look "deeper into the enjoyment of
golf" -- I played Bethpage Black look before everyone joined the bandwagon and the issue there was when grass grew by accident and not by design.

Jim -- no doubt you are guided by price as a key component in your course selection. So be it. If you favor playing over rubble then please knock yourself out.

[Tim Pitner]

As someone who has not played Apache Stronghold in any condition and who has a lot of faith in Tom Doak, I'm interested in checking it out, but the conditions do matter to me.  I certainly don't play courses based only on conditioning, but I have no desire to play off dirt--I can do that at any number of Denver driving ranges.  So, I agree with Matt--I'd like to hear more about the conditioning (photos would help a lot) before playing AS, and that doesn't mean I'm a slave to conditioning or ignorant of other aspects of courses.

[wsmorrison]

We get it, Matt.  You've played AS three times ("no less").  Why do you need to repeat this every posting on this thread?  However, I'd like to thank you for impressing us all that you regarded Bethpage Black before everyone joined the bandwagon (whoever they are).  Are there any other encomiums you care to shower on yourself?  Maybe Ken Burns will do a 36 hour documentary on you so we can all appreciate you as much as you do.  

Stop bragging about the superficial and offer details on courses many of us will never see.  That is how you can add value; perhaps more so than anyone else.  I for one think the courses are more important than you and would rather hear about them.

[John Kavanaugh]

We get it, Matt.  You've played AS three times ("no less").  Why do you need to repeat this every posting on this thread?  However, I'd like to thank you for impressing us all that you regarded Bethpage Black before everyone joined the bandwagon (whoever they are).  Are there any other encomiums you care to shower on yourself?  Maybe Ken Burns will do a 36 hour documentary on you so we can all appreciate you as much as you do.  

Stop bragging about the superficial and offer details on courses many of us will never see.  That is how you can add value; perhaps more so than anyone else.  I for one think the courses are more important than you and would rather hear about them.

Wayne,

This is only the second rude thing I have seen today and I have already been awake 10 hours...The first was Hammy's bash of Huck.

Tell me,  we all know Matt and how he is...so, what does your latest post add to the discussion..

[wsmorrison]

Although I do not feel obliged to defend myself to you, I'll tell you exactly why I wrote what I did even if it did take on a rather critical tone.  Perhaps you will then tell me what your post adds to this discussion.

I ask that Matt sticks to talking about golf courses and describing in detail the courses he comes across on his extensive travels.  Many of us will never see the courses he visits and his added value is a description of these and not his own self-importance.

[Jay Flemma]

IN fairness to all, I have to side a little with BOTH adam and Matt...when I was there in January, my experience was mixed...the FRONT played form and fast and buscuit brown...mind you pretty dry, but no different tha dormant spring conditions anywhere else...but the back was another matter. It was so bone dry and had so much bare earth, that it made me shed a tear like the Indian in the "help people keep america clean" commercials (echoing back to that Bethpage joke someone made.)

I really wanna see pix and hear stories to see how things are going.

Now that being said, if you wanna see a great golf course...come and play.  If you love Doak, come and play.  If you like redans, biarritzes, great diagonals and amazing greens complexes BY ALL MEANS come and play.

But I also agree with Adam...if you think golf is ONLY what you see on the Masters, then it wont be for you.  It's like a Black diamond ski run, experts and experienced golfers should see it...and lets hope it doesn't become NLE.

On that note...we often talk alot about GCA building or buying a course ourselves.  You know, if we were to buy Apache I wonder if conditions might improve...I can say I think we'd all have a hell of a home course.