[Dan Herrmann]

They have 18 good holes.  Can anybody else say that?

NGLA  That's why I posted as above.  

I'm not saying it's necessarily in the category of Pine Valley and NGLA, but Pacific Dunes has 18 good holes.  Some better than others, but all good holes.

Tim,
To paraphrase Lloyd Bentson...

I know Pacific Dunes.  I've played Pacific Dunes.  I love Pacific Dunes.

But Pacific Dunes is no Pine Valley.  

[TEPaul]

"I'd like to hear your thoughts on hole #13 at PV, for those of you who have played the course.
From photos and from what I have read about it, it looks like an awesome hole."

JJ:

The 13th at PVGC? Oh, I don't know, it's had the reputation in quite a few circles for a good amount of time now as perhaps one of the best and most famous par 4s on earth but depending on your mind-set I don't know that that would impress you.



But, I'll tell you what, if you play it and really think you're capable of parring it regularly and maybe even throwing in the occassional birdie like once a year you'll definitely get my attention.

I'll tell you something else, JJ, about the way I look at that hole. I guess I've played it 300-400 times over the years and I've rarely parred it. One time I was right underneath the hole maybe 15 feet up the hill and pretty straight (which is unusual on that green). I got to thinking too much that this may be the only time in my entire life I'd have the opportunity to birdie that SOB of a hole that easily.

Well, I concentrated my ass off it meant so much to me. I got the line right but I left it about three feet short I was thinking so much.

I've birdied every other hole at Pine Valley but not that one, and I guess I never will.

[Tim Pitner]

They have 18 good holes.  Can anybody else say that?

NGLA  That's why I posted as above.  

I'm not saying it's necessarily in the category of Pine Valley and NGLA, but Pacific Dunes has 18 good holes.  Some better than others, but all good holes.

Tim,
To paraphrase Lloyd Bentson...

I know Pacific Dunes.  I've played Pacific Dunes.  I love Pacific Dunes.

But Pacific Dunes is no Pine Valley.  

Dan, I'm pretty sure I acknowledged that.  But, there must be something more to Pine Valley than 18 "good" holes because there are several courses, including Pacific Dunes, that can claim this.

[Jim Johnson]

TEP,

In Ran's analysis of PV under "Courses by Country", a picture of the 13th's landing area shows that the fairway ends at, I'm guessing, about 275 or 300 out from the tee, and then resumes about 50 or 75 yards later, yet it looks in the picture as though the terrain would allow the fairway to continue throughout that entire range.

Any idea why they have made it like this, essentially "target golf", on this hole?

JJ

[Paul_Daley]

Many of us Down Under will never get the chance to play Pine Valley, as many, elsewhere, will never get to play Royal Melbourne West. Time to start an exchange program!

Apart from the Snead vs Hogan shootout at Colonial in
Shell's Wonderful World of Golf series, my favourite golf
video is the early-1960s match of Gene Littler vs Byron Nelson at Pine Valley. In near perfect conditions Nelson won with 73 against 76 (approx). Judging by the way both players wore out their long-irons, PV must have been a brute prior to the last few surges in technological advances. Yet, I suppose, these players probably felt it was way shorter then, than the 1930s and 40s.  
 
Like PV, RMGC, too, has 18 good holes and at least half are great ones. I cannot think of a bad one; the tiny par-3 14th across the road is less good, but still fine enough for most courses.
   

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

#13 at Pine Valley...simply the best,fairest/ hardest par four in the world....along with the best, fairest/hardest par 3 in the world at #5...and the best, fiarest/hardest par 5 in the world at #15

Just three of the things that make Pine Valley so great....but in reality the amswer to this thread is very very simple...EVERYTHING



By the way Paul the Hogan/Sneed wonderful world of golf was played in Houston not at Colonial..but who really cares it is the best tv viewing of all time.

[Jason Topp]

One description of Pine Valley I really enjoy is in Bob Rotella's book, Golf is a Game of Confidence.  One of the chapters is about the mental approach Bill Shean (I'm not sure I have the name right) used in winning the club championship in a year he had not played much golf.  It describes the challenges of each hole, the player's game plan, and how he executed in the first round.  

While it is not an architectural book, it is a wonderful description of the interaction between a good player and a challenging course.

[JeffTodd]

TEP,

In Ran's analysis of PV under "Courses by Country", a picture of the 13th's landing area shows that the fairway ends at, I'm guessing, about 275 or 300 out from the tee, and then resumes about 50 or 75 yards later, yet it looks in the picture as though the terrain would allow the fairway to continue throughout that entire range.

Any idea why they have made it like this, essentially "target golf", on this hole?

JJ

This is simply my opinion/best guess, but the approach shot from the landing area on #13 is as majestic as it is demanding, and I suspect that they simply want everyone to execute that shot rather than bomb it down the slope and into short iron range.

[Paul_Daley]

Michael:
Thanks for the correction about Houston. Not only was the golf great, but Hogan's post-golf lesson was worth bottling.
Cheers

[James Bennett]

Whats so great about PV?  All of the above, plus good caddies (chatty though) plus an understated clubhouse suited for golf (ideal, just like Cypress Point and Merion, both are close to the action).

However, if I were to add three comments to the discussion ...

Blackwater.  I saw this word in Shacklefords golden age of architecture re Pine Valley.  I can think of no better word to describe the water hazards at Pine valley.  Blackwater meant nothing to me, till I saw the actual water - absolutely accurate and beautiful.  As pretty and effective (and natural!) a set of water hazards that I have ever seen).

Meandering.  Played the 4th hole, and discovered we were back at the clubhouse.  I had no idea (a lot of people in the US probably agree with this statement - lol) that we had completed a circle.  I look forward to going back to my maps (perhaps Google) and seeing the changes in direction that I took.  When we played 10, I thought the wind was left to right - wrong, it was right to left.  How do you get something that wrong without special characteristics on the course?

Ease of finding balls (comparative).  The fairways are incredibly wide.  I thought my club had limited rough between fairway and treeline - Pine Valley has 4 yards or so of rough, then the pines.  Also, both Pine Valley and Cypress Point have a marvellous way of managing the rough grasses - sparse dwarf type plants (presumably acidic soils) quite unlike the deep, succulent roughs of the US-Open style courses at Pebble, Olympic and merion that I saw.  I know which set I enjoyed playing on the most.

I was blessed.  Thanks all.

James B

[Mike_Sweeney]

Whats so great about PV?  All of the above, plus good caddies (chatty though) plus an understated clubhouse suited for golf (ideal, just like Cypress Point and Merion, both are close to the action).

James,

I was sorry that we could not work out logistics to get you up to Yale, but it looks like you did okay for yourself. It took me about 25 years to play those and I have yet to see OZ. I think there is potential that you may have taken the title of "America's Guest" from poor old Tom "I can't even get on a Doak 4 Orlando public in between Disney Parks" Huckaby!

[James Bennett]

Mike

the funny thing is that,despite mutual attempts, Tom Huckaby and I didn't meet when I was in California.  From what you are saying, it is not surprising as from a magnetic perspective, like poles reject each other, and opposite poles attract!

The trip has also made me keen to seek out a number of courses in Melbourne that I have seen and never played.  I expect there are about 5 Melbourne courses and 4 Mornington peninsula courses (and 2 on the bellarine peninsula) that a lot of US visitirs have played, but I haven't (yet).  I'm considering applying for a bus-driver/tour host job for some imminent American tourists visiting down-under.  That way I should see the lot, and I hear those Americans tip pretty well too (LOL).  My skill at driving on the lhs of the road would be of great use, as well as my ability to explain why the toilet bowl water goes in a different direction.

Yale will still be there when I next visit, see you then.

James B

[Doug Sobieski]

Ah, #13.............

I played there almost 7 years ago, and still remember exactly how I played 13. Caught my drive a little in the heel and was in the right side of the fairway. Pin was very much in the front left. Hit my 2-iron perfectly, a running draw from about 225 that landed right of the green, took the slope and curled down about 15 feet long and right of the hole. I missed it

The view from the fairway begged me to hit that EXACT shot. And I did it! I've got a great memory for courses I've played and shots I've hit, but knowing that I'll remember exactly how I played that hole for the rest of my life is awesome! That says a lot about how great a hole is.

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