Does Arthur Hills work for Free?

[Matt MacIver]

...to virtually unplayable (see Links at Lighthouse Sound).  

Mike - never played it but heard pretty good things...what so bad?  All eye-candy scenary with no strategy?  Thanks.  

[Dan_Callahan]

Before condemning all of Hills' work, please play Newport National. It is the only Hills course I have played, and I loved it. So he's batting 1.000 in my book.

You can find many photos of the course at
http://www.newportnational.com

[Brent Hutto]

Newport National looks pretty cool. The fifth hole is a beauty (I'm a sucker for a good 250-300 yard hole) and the ninth looks interesting, too. Was it lost-ball city when you played or is there plenty of room in between the wetlands to keep it in play?

[Doug Sobieski]

By all accounts, The Dunes at Seville near World Woods is supposed to be pretty good. That's one that I've always wanted to visit.

I checked and I've played 16 of his courses (10% of his US production). I wonder if that's enough to have a meaningful impression of his work.

[Ryan Crago]

Harbour Point was originally designed without houses. It used to be running through beautiful forest's with great views throughout the back nine.

jordan,

was it DESIGNED without houses?  or was it BUILT without houses?? (initially i mean).  It does happen communities are retrofit into golf courses, but usually golf communities are planned at the time of design.  You'd know more about HP that I though.

rc.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The last time I looked Longaberger was rated #1 Public in Ohio by GW and #17 in the state by GD.

Different strokes for different folks.

It's bombastic headlines on threads like this that  GCA can do without.

[Dan_Callahan]

Brent,

There is lots of room on the course. I played on a windy fall day and didn't come close to losing a ball.

By the way, Newport National might take the prize as best course to have a double-wide for the clubhouse (if Golf Digest ever comes up with such a category). There is a very interesting history to the course, and by all accounts the current layout barely survived a financial crisis. Originally, the Hills design was to be a very pricey private course (something like $150k initiation fee), with a companion course to be open to the public and (I think) designed by Brad Faxon. When money issues arose, the second course was scrapped and the existing one was made public.

[Dan Moore]

There is a very good book on the development, design and construction of Iron Horse a Hills design located in Palm Beach, Florida.  Kind of a "This Old House" for a golf course starting with the developers dream to finished product.  Maybe not an exciting project but alot of interesting detail.  

Driving the Green : The Making of a Golf Course (Paperback)
by John Strawn  1989

Personally I have liked the Hills courses I have played.  Stonewall Orchard outside Chicago has well contoured greens,  a good mix of par 3s, two short par 4's, interesting angles off the tees on the par 4's and a some really good par 5's.  The biggest rap has been on the the very long, blind second shot finishing par 5 which I actually like.  Best thing:  no housing.  

[Jay Cox]

I checked and I've played 16 of his courses (10% of his US production). I wonder if that's enough to have a meaningful impression of his work.

Art Hills really has designed 160 courses in the US?!?!

[Doug Sobieski]

I checked and I've played 16 of his courses (10% of his US production). I wonder if that's enough to have a meaningful impression of his work.

Art Hills really has designed 160 courses in the US?!?!

Yup. I counted 157 on his website.

[PThomas]

By all accounts, The Dunes at Seville near World Woods is supposed to be pretty good. That's one that I've always wanted to visit.

I checked and I've played 16 of his courses (10% of his US production). I wonder if that's enough to have a meaningful impression of his work.

unfortunately, Ron WHitten just wrote about it in GD and the course is , apparently, being SERIOUSLY neglected  in terms of maintenance

[Jordan Wall]

Harbour Point was originally designed without houses. It used to be running through beautiful forest's with great views throughout the back nine.

jordan,

was it DESIGNED without houses?  or was it BUILT without houses?? (initially i mean).  It does happen communities are retrofit into golf courses, but usually golf communities are planned at the time of design.  You'd know more about HP that I though.

rc.

Nope.

The course was originally supposed to be without houses and in beautiful forest.

...so much for that idea, but still a great course IMO...

[A_Clay_Man]

unfortunately, Ron WHitten just wrote about it in GD and the course is , apparently, being SERIOUSLY neglected  in terms of maintenance

Paul, I'm not sure that info is current. Last I had heard they were on the mend.
I will check my sources and get back to you.
Funny how rumors linger about conditions. By the time they circulate the problems could be all solved. That's is why maintenance should be discounted when evaluating architecture.

As for The Dunes Golfer's Club (new name for the dunes at seville) they made some in-house changes that Mr. Hills was none to happy about. As I recall the course had a few outstanding holes accentuated by some massive creativebunkering. While other holes were pedestrian. There is one par three there that has a marvelous green that cants away from the golfer.

The other news (few months back) from the area is that the massive housing project slated to take up much of the land between world woods and dunes golfers club, is back on and will be happening. Also, they will be extending the new highway all the way to Floral city.

[Tim Bert]

I thought I'd share a few pics from my trip to Newport National.  While it doesn't compete with the best of the best that I've played, it is near the top of my "non-world class" public course list.

3rd Hole - 1st of back to back par 3s (Mr. Kavanaugh would not be pleased based on his reports of 10 & 11 at PacDunes - these certainly don't rival those in terms of quality.)


4th hole - 2nd par 3.  Similarity to #3 ends with the distance.  Plays into opposite wind.


14th hole - par 5


15th Green - medium length par 4


A cross section of the course.  The long grass can definitely eat up a ball, but I think the room to miss is fair in most spots.




 

[Wayne Freeman]

I was surprised to discover that I have only played one Hills course-  Cross Creek in northern San Diego county-  a semi private course very well laid out in rolling hills with lots of trees.  It is really very good.
    Big Horn, a very private 36 hole layout in the Palm Springs area has some favorable reviews.  I have not played there, but maybe someone who has can comment.

[Glenn Spencer]

How is Arthur Hills any different from Allen Iverson. He profits from his name and the 'work' that he has done. He is a public figure and I see no reason for me not to say that I hate his golf courses. I don't think that everyone loves Iverson, but I am sure that he does a lot of good things for his family and his community. Hills probably does have a few non-horrible courses out there, with the projects he gets, I am sure that he could fool a few people. I just don't know of anyone that has botched so many quality chances. How many bad Ross courses are out there, bad Ross holes? I bet Hills has more bad courses than Ross does holes.

[David Kelly]

Wayne,
I really disagree with you about Hill's CrossCreek in Temcula, CA.  I thought it was a botch job with some really bad holes.  The course was the subject of a recent thread on GCA:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=22474;start=msg409538#msg409538

As for Hills, I have played 8 of his courses although I may be missing one or two.  Of the eight my favorite was The Dunes at Seville which had some tremendous dunes incorporated into the routing although I thought that he could have used them more than he did.  I haven't played the course in over 10 years but at that time there were maintenance issues.  There was also nobody ever there in the three tmes I played so I doubt they were making much money at the time.

[Jesse Jones]

I have played eight Arthur Hills courses in four states. Some of his holes are awesome. However, the problem I see with his work, is that there are at least two holes on each course that make you just gasp in horror.

#6 and #12 at Shaker
#17 and #18 at Fox Run
#6 and #18 at Pipestone
#8 and #18 at River Downs
#1 and #4 at Longeberger
#1 and #12 at Waverly Woods

You get the gist..The other issue is that Hills gets nice properties.
That, I believe is the genesis of the dissapointment that you see coming from Glenn.
I think some of the comments may be mean spirited, but facts are facts.
By the way there are no homes on Longaberger. they wanted to put in a second 18, for some reason it never got done.

Jesse

[Mike_Young]

How is Arthur Hills any different from Allen Iverson. He profits from his name and the 'work' that he has done. He is a public figure and I see no reason for me not to say that I hate his golf courses. I don't think that everyone loves Iverson, but I am sure that he does a lot of good things for his family and his community. Hills probably does have a few non-horrible courses out there, with the projects he gets, I am sure that he could fool a few people. I just don't know of anyone that has botched so many quality chances. How many bad Ross courses are out there, bad Ross holes? I bet Hills has more bad courses than Ross does holes.

Well you prove my point aboutsome guys on this site again....mention an old dead guy, especially DR and all is well....
Are you kidding re "bad Ross courses"  I have seen several and I have definitely seen bad Ross holes....I would say about 80 of his 400 courses would be worth keeping around....oops...I shouldn't be saying that about donald should I?  

[Glenn Spencer]

Jesse,

You summed things up for me pretty well. How do some of those holes get built? Good call on #6 at Pipestone, I forgot about that one. Did you by chance forget about # 2 at Pipestone? I would think that might be included.

Mike,

What are you talking about? You say that you have seen several courses and yet you are saying that 80%of his courses are not worth keeping. Why are you openly saying that you have no idea what you are talking about like that? If you look at my comments, I said I think Hills is a clown and I wish he would stop Terrorizing Ohio!!!!!!!! I never said that his entire body of work was a throwaway. Although for me it now is, I have seen his best chance at the plate and still hate it. I would love to chat more but I have a 9:00 interview on my new website, www.arthurhillssucks.com.

[Mike_Cirba]

...to virtually unplayable (see Links at Lighthouse Sound).  

Mike - never played it but heard pretty good things...what so bad?  All eye-candy scenary with no strategy?  Thanks.  

Hi Matt,

Sometimes a pic is really worth a thousand words.  Imagine this hole in a 15+ mph wind from any direction which is about 80% of the time given the site.





You'll notice this pic is from about 110 yards.  Imagine it back another 100 or so and further to the right.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Mike,

You must be spoiled, that looks like one of Hills' better holes to me. At least there is a bail out left that makes some sense. Some of his Ohio holes have no bail out. I love the pros tips though, choose club precisely, yes it will be a tough decision between 3-wood and driver if the wind is in my face. Fortunately for the golfer though, there is  a brilliant cart path behind the green that will allow anything hit too long to go splashing into the water. You must not like Pebble Beach? It says on the website that the Washington Monthly called it the 'Pebble Beach of the East' Actually, now that I look at it again, that would be a really good hole from about 110, just like #7 on its sister course in California.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

You must be spoiled, that looks like one of Hills' better holes to me. At least there is a bail out left that makes some sense. Some of his Ohio holes have no bail out.

Glenn,

You call that a bail out area?  Man, you must be accurate!  

If you look again you'll notice that area is about 16 yards deep and 18 yards wide.  Also, from the back tees, the carry to reach the "bail out" area is just as lengthy as to go for the green.  

So, option A is to drive it at the green 220 yards into a wind, crosswind, or worse than all, downwind to an 18 yard deep green with water short, right, and long.

Option B is to drive it at the bailout area 220 yards into a wind, crosswind, or worse than all, downwind to an 16 yard deep bailout area that is narrower than the green, with water short and long.

Nothing like strategy.  

[Mike Hendren]

There is a difference between frank commentary and vendetta, no?

Mike

[Glenn Spencer]

Please read post #90. The man is a public figure that profits off of his name. He has done 157 golf courses on some of the best sites in the country and has nothing really inspiring to show for it. How is that a vendetta? As consumers and members of the golf world, we have every right to bash and tell an architect that his work or his dog's is not appreciated. Maybe it could save future courses. Maybe some junior golfer that lives in Southwest Ohio will be able to move to a place where there are no Arthur Hills designs and enjoy the art of golf strategy. Repeat- the man is a public figure.