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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #175 on: April 25, 2006, 04:47:31 PM »
Mike Young,
   I am curious as to why you don't think Dayton is a Ross routing. I haven't seen a lot of Ross work so I don't know what the hallmarks are that one would look for. What would you normally expect to see?
   This Dayton thing made me think of the course in Lake Placid NY that bills itself as a Mackenzie course. If he was there it is gone but for a few features in 18 holes. I don't know anything about the Dayton thing you guys are discussing, but I do know I don't rely on marketing or scorecards to find out who designed a course.
Ed
No where does it say he routed the course and I don't think he would have routed it as it is routed.  Also, the only work he is mentoned as having done is designing the greens in 1915 in jim Nugent's thread above.  The few times the course has been reworked it has only been a few holes.  
It would be interesting to see how many courses across America are listed as Ross courses in this same manner.  IMHO opinion it just can't be backed up.  Brad K says as much in his book...no plans or notes of site visits.  

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Glenn Spencer

Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #176 on: April 25, 2006, 04:49:21 PM »
Jim,

I saw that rating for Longaberger, that should give everyone an idea of how great the property could have been. Longaberger must have beat out Shaker Run- Hills, I thought Shaker had less catastrophies though.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 04:49:36 PM by Glenn Spencer »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #177 on: April 25, 2006, 04:51:00 PM »
Mike,

When I said he, I was referring to Ross, that is what this discussion is about. Whatever you need to say to bolster your story Mike, old guys at the table- I like that, I probably know them. All of them golf historians that would never just say what they heard the week or year before.
Sorry, when you said carts I assumed you were speaking to me since DR never had a cart.  And I am not worried to bolster my story....arguing with you has become old and boring...good day..
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Glenn Spencer

Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #178 on: April 25, 2006, 04:53:59 PM »
Mike,

Maybe, if it bores you to argue with people, you shouldn't start arguments. I think that routing makes sense. Carts- I guess you really don't have a grasp on someone being facetious do you?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 04:55:16 PM by Glenn Spencer »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #179 on: April 25, 2006, 04:55:33 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Young
 I think it is obvious in looking at the course that it is not a ross routing and the greens complexes do not seem to be ross green complexes.  
[quote

Mike,
   I am not trying to challenge you here, I am trying to learn something. What are the hallmarks you would be looking for that would make you think a course is a Ross routing?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #180 on: April 25, 2006, 04:59:24 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Young
 I think it is obvious in looking at the course that it is not a ross routing and the greens complexes do not seem to be ross green complexes.  
[quote

Mike,
   I am not trying to challenge you here, I am trying to learn something. What are the hallmarks you would be looking for that would make you think a course is a Ross routing?
Ed,
 I think most of his green site and tee sites were on high ground with most of his fairways running parallel with the topo lines.  did not see much of that . And it did not "feel" like a Ross routing if that makes any sense.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #181 on: April 25, 2006, 05:01:21 PM »
Barney; I don't think any of us were raised in a convent (certainly not me for a number of reasons).  Strong language doesn't offend me nor do strong opinions.  But you refuse to differentiate between the manner of communications and the subject.  If someone says "Architect A's work s__ks", that comment, while not very informative, is on point.  If he says "it s__ks because" and then gives some reasons, we can have a discussion.  But if he says "Architect A is an a__hole", he adds nothing to the discussion and he is just plain rude.  That trait is unrelated to intelligence or the ability to articulate.  I have known any number of people who would not have done very well in a debating society but who were as polite and kind as anyone I have known.  Like all of us, I hve met many bright well spoken people who have little or no respect for others.  Thus this is not a discussion about intelligence or facility with the written word; it is about common courtesy and the respect for a professionals personal reputation.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #182 on: April 25, 2006, 05:07:21 PM »
Mike,
   Thanks. I wasn't aware of the topo thing.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #183 on: April 25, 2006, 06:25:57 PM »
Mike Young,

If you would like to avoid arguments in the future, here are a few suggestions.

1. Don't tell someone what they are trying to accomplish by starting a thread in Reply#2
2. Don't tell another poster that you have an issue with a facetious title and answer it with one word like a smart_ _ _ in Reply #17
3. Don't tell someone that a golf course was not designed by someone even though all sources known to man say that it is. Reply 100 and something.
4. Don't say that you got your facts from a professional that was there for a couple of years, over decades of information.
5. Don't say that you will stick by your guns when they are not loaded.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 06:26:46 PM by Glenn Spencer »

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #184 on: April 25, 2006, 06:30:05 PM »
Glenn

I think Hamilton B. Hearst will hold you in high esteem.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #185 on: April 25, 2006, 06:58:19 PM »
I found some interesting quotes in a book. Let's see who can guess who wrote the following...

"The architect whose success puzzles me the most is Art Hills: I can't figure out how his career has taken off without ever having done a single course that the press or public has taken to heart."

AND

"If this is the course that rocketed Hills to prominence, he should be forced to give it all back."

Interesting. Those appear to be relatively common sentiments. Should the author be taken to task for publishing such criticism?

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #186 on: April 25, 2006, 07:55:42 PM »
I know who wrote those!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #187 on: April 25, 2006, 08:15:11 PM »
I found some interesting quotes in a book. Let's see who can guess who wrote the following...

"The architect whose success puzzles me the most is Art Hills: I can't figure out how his career has taken off without ever having done a single course that the press or public has taken to heart."

AND

"If this is the course that rocketed Hills to prominence, he should be forced to give it all back."

Interesting. Those appear to be relatively common sentiments. Should the author be taken to task for publishing such criticism?

Taking your questions in reverse order:

No.

That is Donald Ross, in "Harsh Criticism Has Never Failed Me."
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jim Johnson

Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #188 on: April 25, 2006, 08:15:56 PM »
Guys,

Why the need for the cart path to cross the fairway twice on Newport National's 14th hole?

Just curious.

JJ

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #189 on: April 25, 2006, 09:10:30 PM »
Just a side comment on Dayton CC -

The degree to which the course on the ground now is similar to Ross's plan is best left to those who have both seen the course recently and seen photos of it from Ross's era. I provided the club with an aerial from 1938 which showed fairly convincingly that the course was a Ross design. I also gave them an aerial from 1949 which showed virtually no change from 1938. I've never seen the course but comparing the aerial to a contemporary image shows that the location of the holes hasn't changed all that much. The greens and fairways are generally where they were in 1938 and there doesn't look like there was any re-contouring of the ground. Of course, trees have taken over.

If Wm Diddel worked on the course in the 1940s, it would take a sharper eye than mine to see what he did. The big changes came after 1949 - almost none of the original bunkering remains.


Glenn Spencer

Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #190 on: April 25, 2006, 09:25:58 PM »
This is interesting. I have been attacked for saying the same thing that another very prominent architect said. Why is incorrect or poor behavior for me to say the same thing. There is so much evidence that Hills should 'give it all back' it is not even funny. I have not even read the passage on Hills in that book, only seen the book for about an hour or so.

Doug,

What course was the author referring to?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 09:30:49 PM by Glenn Spencer »

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #191 on: April 25, 2006, 09:41:12 PM »
The first quote referred to The Champions GC in Nicholsville, KY. The second was one of the courses at The Golf Club of Georgia.

It won't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the author was GCA contributor Tom Doak  :)

Tom, I hope you don't mind being used as supporting evidence on this thread!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 09:49:22 PM by Doug Sobieski »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #192 on: April 25, 2006, 09:43:33 PM »
Just a side comment on Dayton CC -

The degree to which the course on the ground now is similar to Ross's plan is best left to those who have both seen the course recently and seen photos of it from Ross's era. I provided the club with an aerial from 1938 which showed fairly convincingly that the course was a Ross design. I also gave them an aerial from 1949 which showed virtually no change from 1938. I've never seen the course but comparing the aerial to a contemporary image shows that the location of the holes hasn't changed all that much. The greens and fairways are generally where they were in 1938 and there doesn't look like there was any re-contouring of the ground. Of course, trees have taken over.

If Wm Diddel worked on the course in the 1940s, it would take a sharper eye than mine to see what he did. The big changes came after 1949 - almost none of the original bunkering remains.


Craig
I knew you had given them a photo but in my discussions with them, no one had ever seen a Ross plan....have you been told differently???
Seemed he had just done some greens....is there a ross plan out there?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kavanaugh

Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #193 on: April 25, 2006, 09:49:02 PM »
Barney; I don't think any of us were raised in a convent (certainly not me for a number of reasons).  Strong language doesn't offend me nor do strong opinions.  But you refuse to differentiate between the manner of communications and the subject.  If someone says "Architect A's work s__ks", that comment, while not very informative, is on point.  If he says "it s__ks because" and then gives some reasons, we can have a discussion.  But if he says "Architect A is an a__hole", he adds nothing to the discussion and he is just plain rude.  That trait is unrelated to intelligence or the ability to articulate.  I have known any number of people who would not have done very well in a debating society but who were as polite and kind as anyone I have known.  Like all of us, I hve met many bright well spoken people who have little or no respect for others.  Thus this is not a discussion about intelligence or facility with the written word; it is about common courtesy and the respect for a professionals personal reputation.

Shelly,

I hope I'm not being rude being so familiar...but with that said.  What percentage of the American public have the ability of being critical without being rude...We can't all be Paula Abdul..or want to be..

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #194 on: April 25, 2006, 10:03:23 PM »
John Cullen, that was a good one. Glenn please take a chill pill before Mucci, TE Paul or Barny get a hold of you.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #195 on: April 25, 2006, 10:11:29 PM »
Tiger,
 
If any of those men could explain how Hills gets the projects that he does, I would love for them to 'get a hold of me'. Is this kindergarten?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 10:51:31 PM by Glenn Spencer »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #196 on: April 25, 2006, 11:13:33 PM »
Barney; I don't know why you're concerned  about familiarity, we've played golf and you know I am not a formal person.  I just think that being a a"regular guy" is not mutually exclusive with having good manners.  That's the way I was raised and I think my folks were (and remain) correct.  Citing the habits of the majority of the american public as a way to persuade me about the proper way to behave won't go very far I'm afraid.  I'm no snob but my standards are higher.  If that is all you expect I suppose we'll agree to disagree on this one.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #197 on: April 25, 2006, 11:21:49 PM »
Doug,  While you accurately quoted the "Confidential Guide" you weren't entirely fair.  While Tom makes the statements quoted he also includes some cogent analysis of the shotcomings of each course thus supporting his conclusion.  I would also suggest the remarks are less personal in nature and are directed at the work when read in context.  Not quite the same as the remarks criticized here.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #198 on: April 25, 2006, 11:29:45 PM »
Glenn

Here's my solution: Don't play any more Hills courses. Does someone put a gun to your head and force you to play them? Surely other archies have done courses in Ohio. Stand by your principles.

I have played only two of his courses, both in Hilton Head- at Palmetto Dunes and Palmetto Hall. Both were pleasant courses but not outstanding. Many like his course at Palmetto Dunes better than HarbourTown as it's usually in better condition most of the year. I have not played his one course in my area- White Clay Creek in Delaware.

His private courses in SW Florida are generally liked by the members. Any archie who does a lot of work is bound to come with some clinkers. As I said before- different strokes for different folks. Why the vitriol?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jim Nugent

Re:Does Arthur Hills work for Free?
« Reply #199 on: April 26, 2006, 02:11:38 AM »
Just a side comment on Dayton CC -

I provided the club with an aerial from 1938 which showed fairly convincingly that the course was a Ross design.


Craig, why does a 1938 aerial convincingly show Ross designed the course?  

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