Does Arthur Hills work for Free?

[Jordan Wall]

I have driven the green all the way from the blues, and gotten within twenty yards from blacks.  

You drove the green last summer?

Nah.

Earlier this year, in February.

Last year, to put it blankly, I was pretty garbage at golf.

Think about it this way though, both days the wind was going downwind about 30mph and the tees were up probably 20 yards or so.

The blues were where the whites were in the picture and the blacks were where the blues were, to give you a better idea.  The hole is a little uphill.

#11, when the tees are up and its downwind, as it was a couple weeks ago, the hole really only plays about 265.  The tees when I drove the green were at the tee box between the whites and golds, about 305 or so.  The hole drops about 60 feet.  It is very cool, as is the view it presents!!

[John_Cullum]

Dunes Golf Club f/k/a Dunes at Seville is one of my favorite courses. I can't think of a bad hole there.

[Jordan Wall]

The hole is VERY different now.

Good, because that hole needed to be fixed from its' original state. This does however reinforce the point that Hills builds some holes that just don't make sense, providing unusal layup opportunities.

I am not positive, but I think when Hills first designed the hole there was fairway in front of the green and the club changed it.

For some reason I am thinking it was because they felt the hole was better played with the dramatic downhill approach, but like I said I am not positive.

As it is now there is not a lot of fairway in front of the green, but enough to get a kick and roll on.

[Mike_Young]

Dayton is not a DR course.  He did come thru there and make a visit once or twice but the course was already there.  From what I recall while visiting there.

Mike -- the Dayton Golf Course guide says you are wrong.  Here is the quote:

"The amenities at Dayton Country Club feature an eighteen hole Donald Ross designed golf course, two outdoor pools, a full service fitness facility, clay and platform tennis courts."

http://www.daytongolfcourseguide.com/dayton-country-club.php

Jim,
I do think the guide is incorrect.  As with many course across the country, they love to say their old course was a ross course if he came thru town and stopped.  I think it is obvious in looking at the course that it is not a ross routing and the greens complexes do not seem to be ross green complexes.  The green chairman himself even admitted that they thoght ross had stopped by there at one time but they did not know what he had done there.  So I think I will stick to my guns.
Mike

[SL_Solow]

I am not a fan of Arthur Hills work.  Whether he qualifies as a public figure under the standards established in NY Times v. Sullivan and its progeny is not an issue which I have spent any time analyzing nor do I intend to do so.  Its a moderately interesting legal question.  Note that if Hills is not a public figure, many of these remarks might be deemed libel per se which shifts the burden of proof to the defendant.  But none of these legal issues which might be of interest in a first year torts class are important.  The issue is really, "what level of discourse do we want to maintain?"  Criticizing Athur Hills' work or the work of any other architect is more than fair game.  It is a critical component of any evaluative process.  But the criticism should be reasoned and should be directed at the work unless there is a business practice or character flaw which the writer deems to be relevant.  Otherwise, personal attacks are irrelevant, distracting and unfair.  They are also lazy as they serve as a substitute for real analysis because it is easier to call someone names than to analyze their work.  The problem is that those who resort to this tactic tend to drag down the contrributions of more serious participants in the eyes of outsiders.  This explains, in part, the negative reaction to many of the remarks contained in this thread.  The reaction is not personal; it is based on the tenor of the statements.

As far as Arthur Hills goes, I have never met him.  However I am acquainted with several people who have worked with him and they all speak highly of him as a real gentleman.  Based on their observations, some of the remarks here are truly unfair even if they were only meant to be clever.

Architecturally, I would not hire Hills as opposed to numerous other architects.  I have seen several of his courses and a number of renovations.  Those which I have seen have been unimaginative and bland at best.  The renovation work has added little of interest and has often been stylistically at odds with the remainder of the course.  Thus my experience leads me to agree with Hill's critics.  But I concur with those who object to the style of the criticism.  This is not a free speech issue; it is an issue of fairness and good taste.  One can legislate against restrictions on free speech; unfortunately we must rely on individuals to exhibit tact and judgment.

[Mike_Cirba]

The Dayton Country Club info I saw claims the course stems from 1897, so if Donald Ross was involved it's likely he did some type of redesign or revision of an existing course.

[Mike_Young]

He came thru there in 1919 and I think Brad listed it as new in his book but site visits and nothing else could be confirmed.  to the several people I know that have seen it....I tink most would say he did not do much at the time.  I believe Paul albanese is doing their masterplan and he may know more.

[Tim Pitner]

This does however reinforce the point that Hills builds some holes that just don't make sense, providing unusal layup opportunities.

I've only played one Hills course that I know well (I've also played Pipestone thanks to my brother-in-law's insistence that golf may be played in Dayton in November--it was about 40 degrees and drizzling and I've never been more miserable on a golf course; I don't remember the holes), but based on my experience and some of the holes shown here, I think this is one thing that Hills seems repeatedly guilty of--"providing unusual layup opportunities."

[Glenn Spencer]

Mike,

I don't agree with the idea that Dayton doesn't remind someone of DR. The first six holes do exactly that for me. Espcecially the long par 3 5th. The sixth feels completely like a Ross hole. The first absolutely does and so does the 11th, 12th, 13th. Wait a minute, it is really the entire golf course, it rings with Ross features. The club was founded in 1898 and we don't know anything about what had been done and whether it is the same golf course or not. As it stands now, it feels like a Ross. What do you mean that it is obvious? I don't think that someone would say that Augusta and Pasatiempo had to be by the same guy.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

I don't agree with the idea that Dayton doesn't remind someone of DR. The first six holes do exactly that for me. Espcecially the long par 3 5th. The sixth feels completely like a Ross hole. The first absolutely does and so does the 11th, 12th, 13th. Wait a minute, it is really the entire golf course, it rings with Ross features. The club was founded in 1898 and we don't know anything about what had been done and whether it is the same golf course or not. As it stands now, it feels like a Ross.

Just keep talking...
I don't know what to say....

[John Kavanaugh]

I am not a fan of Arthur Hills work.  Whether he qualifies as a public figure under the standards established in NY Times v. Sullivan and its progeny is not an issue which I have spent any time analyzing nor do I intend to do so.  Its a moderately interesting legal question.  Note that if Hills is not a public figure, many of these remarks might be deemed libel per se which shifts the burden of proof to the defendant.  But none of these legal issues which might be of interest in a first year torts class are important.  The issue is really, "what level of discourse do we want to maintain?"  Criticizing Athur Hills' work or the work of any other architect is more than fair game.  It is a critical component of any evaluative process.  But the criticism should be reasoned and should be directed at the work unless there is a business practice or character flaw which the writer deems to be relevant.  Otherwise, personal attacks are irrelevant, distracting and unfair.  They are also lazy as they serve as a substitute for real analysis because it is easier to call someone names than to analyze their work.  The problem is that those who resort to this tactic tend to drag down the contrributions of more serious participants in the eyes of outsiders.  This explains, in part, the negative reaction to many of the remarks contained in this thread.  The reaction is not personal; it is based on the tenor of the statements.

As far as Arthur Hills goes, I have never met him.  However I am acquainted with several people who have worked with him and they all speak highly of him as a real gentleman.  Based on their observations, some of the remarks here are truly unfair even if they were only meant to be clever.

Architecturally, I would not hire Hills as opposed to numerous other architects.  I have seen several of his courses and a number of renovations.  Those which I have seen have been unimaginative and bland at best.  The renovation work has added little of interest and has often been stylistically at odds with the remainder of the course.  Thus my experience leads me to agree with Hill's critics.  But I concur with those who object to the style of the criticism.  This is not a free speech issue; it is an issue of fairness and good taste.  One can legislate against restrictions on free speech; unfortunately we must rely on individuals to exhibit tact and judgment.

Shelly,

Sadly most people are not very smart and couldn't put a thought together like you have above with even the least lazy of efforts.  How can the stupid speak if it is not stupidly..I value their/our opinions..

[Jim Nugent]

Jim,
I do think the guide is incorrect.  As with many course across the country, they love to say their old course was a ross course if he came thru town and stopped.  I think it is obvious in looking at the course that it is not a ross routing and the greens complexes do not seem to be ross green complexes.  The green chairman himself even admitted that they thoght ross had stopped by there at one time but they did not know what he had done there.  So I think I will stick to my guns.
Mike

Mike, the Donald Ross Society also credits Ross as architect.  So does the Dayton Country Club website.  So does the Ohio Golf Association.  

But here is an article from the Dayton Daily News that suggests Glenn and you may both be right:

"The first U.S. Open Golf Championship was held in 1895 at the Newport (R.I.) Country Club.

Three years later a group of Dayton men organized the Dayton Golf Club. That club lasted until 1908 when the Dayton Country Club rose from its ashes.

Dayton Country Club is the oldest club in the immediate Dayton area. The only older club in the Miami Valley is the Piqua Country Club, which built a golf course in 1895.

Dayton Country Club is located on a beautiful piece of wooded land at the Oakwood-Kettering border.

Some of the golf holes are just across the road from Hills and Dales Park. Because the club is situated on high ground, there are some extraordinary views of Dayton from certain places on the property.

The DCC golf course is a tight, hilly layout that can be played at just over 6,300 yards. The current par is 70, but don't allow that lack of length to fool you. The narrow, tree-lined fairways and tricky greens protect par pretty well.

The great architect, Donald Ross, designed DCC's greens in 1915. The club had the course remodeled in the 1940s by William Diddel and in the 1960s by Geoffrey Cornish.

Current DCC pro David Bahr says 12 of the present holes are originals. DCC hosted the Ohio Amateur Championship in 1920 and 1962. It was home for many years to the Miami Valley PGA Match Play Championship and has hosted a U.S. Amateur qualifier the last couple of years.

DCC has weathered many a storm. A fire in 1929 badly damaged much of the clubhouse and destroyed the riding stables. The Great Depression took its toll on membership, but the club bounced back with the economy. During World War II, the upper story of the clubhouse was made into a dorm for military officers.

DCC was enhanced with the construction of a new swimming pool in 2002 and it appears ready for the challenges of the years ahead."

[Glenn Spencer]

Jim,

Thank you for finding that. What on earth about that says that Mike is correct about anything. Mike made it sound like he had a drink in the bar and took a cart ride around the place. Ross Society, Ohio Golf Association, Miami Valley Golf Assciation and the club itself against Mike Young and what he can remember, I think I will stick with my guns Mike.

[John Kavanaugh]

Glenn,

Careful...there are a handful of architects out there that could kick your ass and I think Mr. Young is one of them....Which explains why it is much safer to insult golf writers and critics..

[Mike_Young]

Jim,
I was told by Dave Bahr that many of the holes were originals and that Ross had designed stop by and suggested designs for some greens.  I do know a few of the holes have been rerouted.  Since it is not a Ross routing I do not consider it a Ross course and think it is wrong if the Ross Society does.  According to Brad Klein there were no confirmed site visits or plans.  I think this is a good example of how we got to a 400 number for DR....
And this is just another opinion to add to the Ross myth.  Nothing more.
Mike

[Glenn Spencer]

Maybe Dave Bahr should settle in a little bit at the club before he starts rewriting history. On a side note, the Golf Professional at Moraine told me the wrong real first name for Nipper Campbell and believed it until I showed him differently. Not exactly historians.

[SL_Solow]

Barney; you misperceive the thrust of my post.  One does not have to be particularly intelligent to exhibit good manners.  Thats all we are really talking about isn't it; showing respect for the reputation of another person.  Attack his work all you want and if he can't take the heat he probably doesn't belong in the business.  But absent real provocation, leave the personal attacks out.  They add nothing and they reflect badly on the person making the attacks.

Finally, you can use the poor ignorant country boy routine on everybody else but it won't work on me.  I recognize that one from a court date in North Carolina long ago and besides, I know you my friend.

[ed_getka]

Mike Young,
   I am curious as to why you don't think Dayton is a Ross routing. I haven't seen a lot of Ross work so I don't know what the hallmarks are that one would look for. What would you normally expect to see?
   This Dayton thing made me think of the course in Lake Placid NY that bills itself as a Mackenzie course. If Mackenzie was there it is gone but for a few features in 18 holes. I don't know anything about the Dayton thing you guys are discussing, but I do know I don't rely on marketing or scorecards to find out who designed a course.

[Mike_Young]

Jim,

Thank you for finding that. What on earth about that says that Mike is correct about anything. Mike made it sound like he had a drink in the bar and took a cart ride around the place. Ross Society, Ohio Golf Association, Miami Valley Golf Assciation and the club itself against Mike Young and what he can remember, I think I will stick with my guns Mike.

Well, I have played it a few times and no I did not take a cart, I walked and I did not have a drink in the bar last time but I did have lunch...

[George Pazin]

John, I think Geoff could take you. He seems like a scrapper.

Driving the Green, the Strawn book, is based around a Art Hills course, Ironhorse, to the best of my recollection. It's a very interesting read.

I haven't played a Hills course, so I can't comment on anything else, other than to make the fairly obvious observation that if you title a thread provocatively and take a good hard jab at someone or something, experience shows that's the best way to get some juicy discussion going. The analytical threads tend to die on the vine relatively quickly (speaking from first hand experience on both counts).

[Mike_Young]

Maybe Dave Bahr should settle in a little bit at the club before he starts rewriting history. On a side note, the Golf Professional at Moraine told me the wrong real first name for Nipper Campbell and believed it until I showed him differently. Not exactly historians.

He was there for a few years before moving....bt the old guys at the table agreed with him and were proably the source.

[Jim Nugent]

Mike, that's interesting.  May be a GCA urban legend.    

Something that will thrill Glenn even more:  Golfweek rates Longaberger as Ohio's number one public access course.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Mike,

When I said he, I was referring to Ross, that is what this discussion is about. Whatever you need to say to bolster your story Mike, old guys at the table- I like that, I probably know them. All of them golf historians that would never just say what they heard the week or year before.

[ed_getka]

Ed,

Is Hills not a public figure? Yes or no?

I would have thought yes, but apparently the legal guys are saying no.

[John Kavanaugh]

Barney; you misperceive the thrust of my post.  One does not have to be particularly intelligent to exhibit good manners.  Thats all we are really talking about isn't it; showing respect for the reputation of another person.  Attack his work all you want and if he can't take the heat he probably doesn't belong in the business.  But absent real provocation, leave the personal attacks out.  They add nothing and they reflect badly on the person making the attacks.

Finally, you can use the poor ignorant country boy routine on everybody else but it won't work on me.  I recognize that one from a court date in North Carolina long ago and besides, I know you my friend.

Shelly,

All I am saying is that sometimes a guy knows something sucks but can't put it into words and being rude is all they know.  Guys like that don't have to be your friend but they can sometimes make a good source of information   This isn't a tea party with your wife across the table.  For example I have had employees tell me that a fellow worker is not productive in the most vile manner you can imagine....It is the only way they know how to communicate and is important information none the less...

note:  If I don't get back to you it is because I have a date with golf, beer and cursing...not necessarily in that order..