Does Arthur Hills work for Free?

[Doug Sobieski]

That absolute statement is wrong.

If there is one thing I know for sure, it's that ALL generalizations are false  

Also, 3 out of 4 people in America make up 75% of the population. I have data to back that up.

[Glenn Spencer]

Dan,

You are absolutely correct. I did say that and I stand corrected, I think, I would have to play this Newport gig to make sure. I do not however think that it takes just one course to experience and architect though. For example, there is a course called Dayton Country Club in Dayton, Ohio that is built on 98? acres. The place has some great holes and some not so great. It is clear that Donald Ross did not have enough room to do what needed to be done here. I love Donald Ross golf courses, but if this was the only one that I had played, I would not feel this way. At the same time, I do not think that a quality golf course like Newport National on his resume out of 157 qualifies him to be brought in and build Longaberger.

[ed_getka]

 I really wish this guy would find another state besides Ohio to terrorize!!! I can't believe this guy is paid to design these golf courses.

Doug,
   I don't think anyone has an issue with Glenn's opinion, I certainly don't, but some of the things he has said like above are just unnecessary. I think that is the gist of what people are saying.

[Doug Sobieski]

 I really wish this guy would find another state besides Ohio to terrorize!!! I can't believe this guy is paid to design these golf courses.

Doug,
   I don't think anyone has an issue with Glenn's opinion, I certainly don't, but some of the things he has said like above are just unnecessary. I think that is the gist of what people are saying.

Ed:

I certainly agree that is a large part of the issue. I just feel that his comments are no worse than many of those from JakaB and others in the past. I have a feeling that John K. would agree with me on that. It seems like a double standard. I wish I could find some of the legendary threads (The Bridge, Sandpines, et al) to see how critical some people were.

I'd asked you in the Pilgrim's Run thread, any chance you'll be getting back to Columbus to visit your relatives at all this year? I need a reason to arrange a visit to The Golf Club!

Regards,

Doug

[ed_getka]

Mike,
 
 I am just wondering who the man sleeps with to get his work.                                                                          no way there is an architect who has more horrible holes on their resume. No Way!!!

Unfortunately I don't know how to do multiple quotes on one post. This is just a small sampling, but how does this add to the conversation/critique?

[ed_getka]

Doug,
   I thought I responded to that question. Sorry, I won't be back there this year, but most likely will be next summer, so if you can hold out that long, I am happy to provide an excuse.

Regarding JakaB he has made inflammatory comments to amuse himself, which I don't think Glenn is doing. John certainly was called on it repeatedly, and unfortunately some guys left the site because of some things John said.

[Glenn Spencer]

Ed,

Is Hills not a public figure? Yes or no?

[Pete Lavallee]

My only experience with a Hills course is Jordan's Harbour Pointe. My strongest memory was that the 11th hole was a clunker. We were forced to play from the gold tee, where it was only 170 to the edge of a steep hill covered in deep rough. It was 2 six irons as I recall; the hole from that tee pad just made no sense. I can't recall why exactly we were forced to play from there. Here's the hole:

[Mike_Young]

Dan,

You are absolutely correct. I did say that and I stand corrected, I think, I would have to play this Newport gig to make sure. I do not however think that it takes just one course to experience and architect though. For example, there is a course called Dayton Country Club in Dayton, Ohio that is built on 98? acres. The place has some great holes and some not so great. It is clear that Donald Ross did not have enough room to do what needed to be done here. I love Donald Ross golf courses, but if this was the only one that I had played, I would not feel this way. At the same time, I do not think that a quality golf course like Newport National on his resume out of 157 qualifies him to be brought in and build Longaberger.

Dayton is not a DR course.  He did come thru there and make a visit once or twice but the course was already there.  From what I recall while visiting there.

[A.G._Crockett]

Ed,

Is Hills not a public figure? Yes or no?

This is an interesting question that some of the lawyers might be able to answer with certainty.  For purposes of libel or slander, my guess would be no, Arthur Hills is NOT a public figure.  He is neither a public official, nor is he routinely involved in events that are newsworthy.  I doubt one person in a thousand who does NOT play golf could tell you who Arthur Hills is, and this is not the case for true "public figures" of course.

That said, I think the issue is whether or not criticizing the man as opposed to a reasonably objective discussion of his work is helpful.  I think it is not, and I doubt that this particular type of criticism will reflect well on this site, or be a positive factor in other figures in the industry contributing here.  I happen to think both are valuable.

[Glenn Spencer]

Mike,

What is your problem with me? Yes it is. You just made a blanket statement to someone who lived 3 miles away all his life, because you went through there. Try miamivalleygolf.org to check your facts. Is Moraine still Nipper Campbell,Mike? How about Miami Valley, did Ross do that? Please tell me.

[Glenn Spencer]

AG,

Every time a town opens a new golf course it is a newsworthy event. Hills is right there at the forefront. The mailer that goes out has his quotes on it. The billboard says a Arthur Hills course. I assume he is there in some fashion to open some of them. I would say that this is newsworthy, especially in say Nashport, Ohio.

[Sean_A]

This thread is starting to get a bit out of hand.  People have rightly pointed out that Glenn has crossed the line.  He has toned it down a bit.  

It would be useful if people would also point out to the old boys on this site when they cross the line.  Couching "untouchables" is not great PR.  Keep a steady standard.

Ciao

Sean

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

What is your problem with me? Yes it is. You just made a blanket statement to someone who lived 3 miles away all his life, because you went through there. Try miamivalleygolf.org to check your facts. Is Moraine still Nipper Campbell,Mike? How about Miami Valley, did Ross do that? Please tell me.

Glenn,
I have no problem with you.  I don't know you.  and the area where you live is a nice area with some very nice golf courses.  I made several visits there to meet with their green committee when they were interviewing architects for a masterplan a few years back....and I spent several days on site....It is not a donald ross course.....he may have been there but he did not design that golf course.....

[Jim Nugent]

Dayton is not a DR course.  He did come thru there and make a visit once or twice but the course was already there.  From what I recall while visiting there.

Mike -- the Dayton Golf Course guide says you are wrong.  Here is the quote:

"The amenities at Dayton Country Club feature an eighteen hole Donald Ross designed golf course, two outdoor pools, a full service fitness facility, clay and platform tennis courts."

http://www.daytongolfcourseguide.com/dayton-country-club.php

[Jordan Wall]

He has some great holes too.

Jordan,

I realize this graphic may not do the hole justice, but what's so great about this hole?  It looks like a forced carry with a 3 wood through some trees and then a short approach.  It doesn't look like driving the green is much of an option--it's probably too long and the strip of rough in front of the green doesn't encourage it.  The green is bunkered on both sides.  I like that you have to think about the length of your tee shot because of the water beyond the fairway, but I don't know that this distinguishes the hole that much.  Like I said, it may be a cool hole in person, but I don't see the brilliance from this graphic.  

Actually the picture is kind of weird.  There is no rough in front of the green, at least not anymore, and when the course plays fast and firm in the summer it is definitely driveable.  Usually in the summer it plays downwind.  I have driven the green all the way from the blues, and gotten within twenty yards from blacks.  Though the picture may not make it seem so, if you hit a long iron or three wood off the tee you have a small landing area with bail out big time to the right, but if you play aggressive you also have to contend with bunkers that strecth about 70 yards from the green.  It is a really great hole!!

[Glenn Spencer]

I don't even know what to say. He may have been there, but he did not design the course, the 2nd least promoted club in the area is lying about their architect and they have been doing it for years, Ok Mike.

[Jordan Wall]

My only experience with a Hills course is Jordan's Harbour Pointe. My strongest memory was that the 11th hole was a clunker. We were forced to play from the gold tee, where it was only 170 to the edge of a steep hill covered in deep rough. It was 2 six irons as I recall; the hole from that tee pad just made no sense. I can't recall why exactly we were forced to play from there. Here's the hole:

The hole is VERY different now.

Instead of long rough all the way down the hill, it stretches a little bit beyong an ideal landing zone.  If you take an extra club there is a plateau which is blind from the tee but will give you a wedge into the green.  If you can carry a ball 250 yards, at least from the white tees, the green is driveable, especially in the summer.  A couple weeks ago I put it on with a three wood, and while I hit the crap out of it and it actually went straight, it just goes to show it still gives you options.  It forces you to hit a good shot too, because there are red stakes left and OB to the right, but at the same time the fairway is wide enough to where the only to really go that far left or right is to hit a really bad shot.

[John Kavanaugh]

Glenn,

What do you think of Urbana CC and the work of Paul Dye....Is Paul Pete's dad..

[Jim Nugent]

I have driven the green all the way from the blues, and gotten within twenty yards from blacks.  

You drove the green last summer?

[Jordan Wall]

A view of #11, but without the fairway in front of the green.  (the fairway is now in, so an old pic...)

[Mike_Young]

I don't even know what to say. He may have been there, but he did not design the course, the 2nd least promoted club in the area is lying about their architect and they have been doing it for years, Ok Mike.

Sorry you don't know what to say.....

[Glenn Spencer]

  Dayton Country Club  
 
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Year Founded: 1898      
 Men's Club Champ: Skip Snow  
Architect:  Donald Ross
 Ladies Club Champ:  
Club Phone:  (937) 294-2735
 General Manager: Becky
 
Golf Shop Phone: (937) 294-3352  Golf Professional: David Bahr
Club Fax: (937) 294-4151 Superintendent: Dennis Cox
 
GHIN Club Number: 66-004     Banquet Coordinator: Carol Harrah  
Web Site: http://www.daytoncountryclub.com/   MVGA Club Rep: Dan Pelphrey
Course Record: 63 - Gene Folkerth - 1968  DDWGA Club Rep: Carol Carls

[Pete Lavallee]

The hole is VERY different now.

Good, because that hole needed to be fixed from its' original state. This does however reinforce the point that Hills builds some holes that just don't make sense, providing unusal layup opportunities.

[Glenn Spencer]

John,

I have not played Urbana and I am not sure about Paul. I did not think that it was his son. I have heard many times about the greens at Urbana, heard they are quite enjoyable. Kind of like a Forest Hills type golf course, I would imagine you have played that, short and tight but with really tough greens.