I love Kiawah and Harbour Town; what do you think about the value?

[Jay Flemma]

I love Pete Dye and really get what he did at both places.  I'm going to give them really high scores for alot of categories.

Both are well over $200 a round though...close to $300 at times.

I'm struggling with analyzing the value factor.  Sitting here having played Black Mesa and Tobacco and other great 50-80 dollar courses, its tough to compare side by side.

Trying to pick which $200 course should be spoken of side by side with The Road and BM is a really tough call.

I totally love Kiawah's look and feel...the horizontal and vertical movement in the earth.  There's nice contours on the greens but they dont eat you up after the fairways and sand do.  I thought one stretch on the back just got too penal.  I was in the mumble tank on thirteen.  I swear I haven't seen shooting that bad since Mark David Chapman went gunning for Yoko Ono and missed with every shot:)

Played a little better for the five holes I got in at HT...I was actually expecting it to be even more narrow,but I didn't get to the forested front side (started on 10)

Guys, please give me a little guidance...what do you think about the value factor for those two...

Thanks.

Chechessee tomorrow.  Woo hoo!

[PThomas]

Jay - I played the Ocean ...man, it was more than 7 years ago, time FLIES!!!!...

I'm sure it was (a lot!?) cheaper than

doesn't appear much doubt that it's a great golf course....I've also said before here that it's the hardest course I've ever played too

having said that, it's definitely worth a play at least once and probably more...put it this way, compared to  Spyglass - which I have never played and I was in CA last week and still didn't cause it don't seem worth $325 to me, not even once! - well, there isn't any comparison , cause the Ocean seems to be a much better course

bottom line:  Ocean ain't cheap...but it ain't $450 like Pebble or $500 like Shadow C, so the value is not too bad

[Brent Hutto]

I've played both the Ocean Course at Kiawah and Spyglass Hill and those two courses reminded me more of each other than either of them did of any other course. My mind doesn't work well in "which is better" mode but if I could afford the ridiculously hefty greens fee I'd play either of them again in a heartbeat.

One thing they both share is scalability. I found each of them to be quite playable by a 20-handicapper from up tees (about 6,000 yards and Kiawah and 6,200+ at Spyglass) while obviously providing a huge challenge to the very best players at 7,000 yards. Spyglass has the more spectacular setting (love those tall Monterey Pine hillsides) but they both have a sense of a generous scale with plenty of room for your tee shots on the longer holes and green designs that require precision of planning and execution on routine chips and pitches.

Both courses seem like close to ideal implementations of a certain kind of golf course. They are fun to play, more intimidating than truly penal and they offer more than ample chances to see your stroke-play score suffer if you play them from too far back or get sloppy around the greens. Both of them show that a tough enough "championship" course to appeal to elite players can still be beautiful and don't have to be ugly, narrow slogs through deep rough and forced carries.

[David Wigler]

Jay,

I just had this discussion offline with someone.  Value means totally different things to different people.  If the cost of a course bothers you, than there is no way you can justify either course.  If you spend money and then forget about it, I cannot imagine a more fun place to play than the Ocean Course.  If you love golf, I cannot imagine missing the Ocean Course.

Give me a choice of a $40 golf course that is described as a "Good Value," and a $200 golf course that is described as "Awesome," I will choose the $200 course ten times out of ten.  Conversely, give me a choice between a $40 dollar bottle of wine that is described as a "Good Value," and a $200 bottle of wine that is described as "Awesome," I will choose the $40 bottle of wine ten times out of ten because I do not appreciate wine enough to justify the difference.

[Evan_Green]

Jay

I'm not sure anyone plays Kiawah or Harbour Town to get a "good deal." Similarly I dont think anyone stays in a Four Seasons or eats in a Mortons to get a "good deal." Rather these are luxury experiences that people indulge in even though they could have stayed in a cheaper hotel or gotten a cheaper steak (or played golf for less $) because the difference in quality is worth it to them.

HT and Kiawah are clearly two of the very finest resort courses in the world. Playing either of these courses is a rare and coveted experience, thus they are priced accordingly. Clearly there are more than enough takers to support the high end prices these courses charge.

As David says, the value totally depends on the person. I, for one, spent the money to play both of these awesome courses about two years ago. I have never regretted spending the money on either of these courses even for one minute. However, I never felt like I "got a great deal" like one would feel if they got a suit on clearance or played a very good golf course for $40. As in purchasing any luxury item at full price (high season for these courses), I knew I could have paid less to play golf and still played on a nice course, but to me it was worth paying the extra to play these courses. I felt that coming all the way from CA (and considering how much that cost) how could I have visited Hilton Head or Kiawah and not played these couses?

Of course to someone else it may very well not have been worth it to spend the money to play these courses.  No matter how great the course is, they still would feel like they paid too much. These are the folks that the less expensive golf courses in the HH and Charleston areas would be better options.  I think David's wine analogy is spot on. It just totally depends on the person as to whether its a good value or not.

[cary lichtenstein]

Jay,

I just had this discussion offline with someone.  Value means totally different things to different people.  If the cost of a course bothers you, than there is no way you can justify either course.  If you spend money and then forget about it, I cannot imagine a more fun place to play than the Ocean Course.  If you love golf, I cannot imagine missing the Ocean Course.

Give me a choice of a $40 golf course that is described as a "Good Value," and a $200 golf course that is described as "Awesome," I will choose the $200 course ten times out of ten.  Conversely, give me a choice between a $40 dollar bottle of wine that is described as a "Good Value," and a $200 bottle of wine that is described as "Awesome," I will choose the $40 bottle of wine ten times out of ten because I do not appreciate wine enough to justify the difference.

I agree with this 100%. I would add that it does affect my repeat play. I paid $500 to play Shadow Creek, $350 x 2 for Bette and I at East Lake, and while I enjoyed both days, they are both too expensive for repeat play.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's the travel costs that really kill a guy..Funny thing...It does seem like the great private courses in the country have affordable guest fees as I never hear anyone bitch...hmmmm.

note: I rarely if ever pay so I have found most courses to be quite the value..

[PThomas]

Jay,

I just had this discussion offline with someone.  Value means totally different things to different people.  If the cost of a course bothers you, than there is no way you can justify either course.  If you spend money and then forget about it, I cannot imagine a more fun place to play than the Ocean Course.  If you love golf, I cannot imagine missing the Ocean Course.

Give me a choice of a $40 golf course that is described as a "Good Value," and a $200 golf course that is described as "Awesome," I will choose the $200 course ten times out of ten.  Conversely, give me a choice between a $40 dollar bottle of wine that is described as a "Good Value," and a $200 bottle of wine that is described as "Awesome," I will choose the $40 bottle of wine ten times out of ten because I do not appreciate wine enough to justify the difference.

I agree with this 100%. I would add that it does affect my repeat play. I paid $500 to play Shadow Creek, $350 x 2 for Bette and I at East Lake, and while I enjoyed both days, they are both too expensive for repeat play.

well-put Cary....I played Pebble once 16 years ago, and won't pay full freight - 450! - to do so again....

most courses I would pay for once, like Shadow Creek...but as I said before I won't pay $325 for Spyglass

[Matt MacIver]

I've played both The Ocean Course and HarbourTown and love them both.  But given 10 rounds I would split it 8-2 in favor or TOC.  Going even further, I probably wouldn't pay to play HarbourTown again, while I am coming out of pocket to play TOC this June.  

As for value, there were limited tee times available at TOC when I wanted to play (steady play plus it's booked for a conference).  They suggested I book a time at any of the other 4 courses -- good courses and all much cheaper than TOC.  But for me, since I get there so infrequently, I changed my schedule so I could pay top-dollar to play a top course (and my favorite to date).  

P.S. But I wouldn't change a thing about my round at HT, it was worth the money seeing it, I learned a lot there.  One of my favorite bunkers is the little sliver of one back-right on par 3 17th, which helped me understand the 1/2 stroke penalty concept.  
 

[Tim Pitner]

I've played the Ocean Course but not Harbourtown.  When I played the Ocean Course years ago, it was probably the best public-access, seaside course in the U.S. (it was pre-Bandon Dunes Resort).  So, the cost didn't bother me that much because it not only offered good golf, it offered a unique experience.  I enjoyed the course, although it was extremely difficult.  I understand it's been softened a bit since then and been changed so there are more ocean views.  I'd love to see the changes.  I also thoroughly enjoyed Kiawah--very laid back and great beaches.

Like I said, I haven't played Harbourtown, but I wonder whether it offers the same level of golf experience that the Ocean Course does.  I kind of doubt it.  It looks like a fun, strategic course which was ahead of its time, but now doesn't look all that different from many resort courses.  I know it's a very good course, but I personally want something above and beyond that for $200-$300.  I'd certainly play Harbourtown if in the area but have no plans to go out of my way to play it.

[ed_getka]

I don't think Jay is looking for a good deal. He is asking whether the courses are that much more architecturally significant to justify the price. I can't imagine Harbourtown or Kiawah are THAT superior to Tobacco Road or Black Mesa from what I have read here over the years. I haven't seen any of the four courses referenced, but I do plan to play TR, BM, and the Ocean course some day. At the price point mentioned I would most likely never play Harbourtown.
   Totally agree with DW's analogy.

[Doug Sobieski]

Even at $500 per round, Harbour Town and The Ocean Course are worth more as real estate! Certainly not the best financial use for the land. In that regard, maybe they are a value in that the owner (same owner for both) is not trying to extract the true economic benefit of the land.

[astavrides]

harbor town has 1 price for all the holes you can play during the winter months, which makes it a good value.  I really like that course.

[Tim Leahy]

If you put out $500 for Shadow Creek, I can guarantee you that Spyglass is ten times better.

[David Wigler]

If you put out $500 for Shadow Creek, I can guarantee you that Spyglass is ten times better.

Tim - I am asking, not playing grand inquisitor, but I am curious if you have played both.  I agree that it is not close but think that Shadow Creek is far better.  Here are three other places that would say Shadow is the better course:

Tom Doak who puts Shadow Creek in his 31 flavors and rates Spyglass a 7; Golfweek, which rates Shadow 8th and Spyglass 15th; Golf Digest, which rates Shadow 20th and Spyglass 53rd.  

I know GCA sometimes has a habit of blanket Fazio bashing but it is rare (Although not unheard of) that someone who has played Shadow takes that harsh a shot at it.

[Brent Hutto]

Ed,

I can't really evaluate whether one course is better than another much less enough better to justify 3-5x in price but Tobacco Road versus Spyglass/Kiawah are very different categories of golf course. Fun and quirky versus fun and demanding.

I had as much fun playing Tobacco Road as either of the others but in my opinion the Road is all about fun. No way I'd suggest to a bunch of plus-handicap limberbacks that they have a stroke-play tournament there. It's about quirk and about bold contours and out-of-this-world visuals whereas The Ocean Course or Spyglass are fun and spectacular and capable of challenging Tour players at medal play (assuming the wind isn't blowing too hard at Kiawah). I think that capability alone adds many dollars to the asking price in the current golf course market in this country.

Now in a perfect world, given the golf games that most of us bring to the course you might hope that fun, quirk and spectacular uniqueness would command a premium and plain old toughness at stroke play would be less valued. But that's not the way it works.

[ed_getka]

Brent,
   I have no problem with the way the rest of the world approaches it. I know what I like, and how much I am interested in paying, it is as simple as that. I am not saying any of these courses aren't worth the dollars they charge the free world. Courses are worth what the market will bear.
   I have seen enough great architecture at this point to know that I don't need to spend $250+ to see every nuance in the architecture world. I can live without seeing every course.
   Also as JakaB alludes many of us have been the recipient of invites to great courses that cost a fraction of some of the super expensive public tracks. I would imagine in most cases 5 really good courses at $80 each are going to afford you an opportunity to see more cool architecture than one go at Pebble.

[Brent Hutto]

  Also as JakaB alludes many of us have been the recipient of invites to great courses that cost a fraction of some of the super expensive public tracks. I would imagine in most cases 5 really good courses at $80 each are going to afford you an opportunity to see more cool architecture than one go at Pebble.

Or you could split the difference with one round at Spyglass Hill and then two really amazing private courses. That would probably work real good  

[cary lichtenstein]

As one who has played both Spyglass and Shadow Creek, SC is worth the one time cost just to see how much can be created out of nothingness, Spyglass was my first introduction to sand dunes and ice plant, well worth the admission.

Many courses are one timers and well worth the money, but they need to be very special.

[Jay Flemma]

Cary...there are sometimes I choosethe 40-60 dollar course...I love Hiawatha and Black Mesa and Tobacco.  I'm having a hard time choosing between Kiawah (Ocean) and HT cause they look and play so different.

I'll say this...I feel anything over $200 isnt a GOOD value...I think both are close to fair value...I'm just having trouble choosing which is more superlative.  Ocean course is prettier, but HT MAY be better all around test of golf...but as I only saw 6 holes, I cant be sure.  

Ed, hit my question right in the head.  Which is more worth the money it charges.  Yes, BM and The Road clobber both in the VALUE catagory...and may even win the desig n category, but I admit thats a matter of personal taste.

Stavros also had a great analysis...the one price for all you canplay...stavros, what was that price and how cold was it?  WHen was the time frame?

[redanman]

Value?

Relative at these prices

Kiawah Ocean











TPC Sawgrass


Pebble



Shadow Creek



Spyglass


#2 (how much!?)

Harbour Town

..something like that

[Matt MacIver]

Both Ocean and HT made me try shots I wouldn't normally try.  

At Ocean I tried to punch the ball low, under the wind.  Didn't usually work but it screwed with my mind.  

At HT I need to punch / work the ball out low from under the oak trees and run it up to small, guarded greens.  Didn't work much either but it was loads of fun trying to be that creative.  

As I said before I wouldn't trade my experience on either course, but I chose to play Kiawah first and, after playing HT once will go back to KI again, again and again....

Enjoy your difficult but fun decision.

[Jerry Kluger]

Jay: It's interesting that you've brought up the Ocean Course and I just spoke to my doc who said he was going with 12 guys to Kiawah and renting 3 townhouses and bringing in someone to cook for them.  I've been to Kiawah at least 5 times with my family and I've played the Ocean Course at least a dozen times versus Harbour Town once about 10 years ago and I really don't remember much of the course.  Kiawah to me is the value and the OC is a small part of it.  It is the best value for a family vacation that I've experienced although it has been going up in price at a fast pace.  Mike Vegis does a great job promoting the place and Charleston is a great city to visit.

With all that being said the question is whether the OC is a good value.  To me it is a good value when you consider that it is in the same league as Bandon but its on the east coast and is not that hard to get to.  It is a rare course where someone as outstanding as Pete Dye is given the opportunity to go back and change things that he feels are necessary around ten years after the course has opened.  I think that there some outstanding holes on the course and in order to score well you must be able to play a whole variety of shots -and if the wind is blowing you are in for one tough day. BTW if you get the opportunity to play Cassique don't miss it.

The principal criticism I have heard about Harbour Town is that the course conditioning is often not nearly at the level one would expect.  

[redanman]

Ocean course is prettier, but HT MAY be better all around test of golf

Test of golf? Always a curious thought, sort of like 'shit values'.  Just how hard do we want to be beaten over the head?


I respectfully disagree as one must golf his ball at his very best at the Ocean Course otherwise you get your ass in a bag given back to you.

On another thought raised:
The condition of the Ocean Course is nearly always two orders of magnitude beter than Harbour Town which I usually find about a step above the local muni.

[Brent Hutto]

The turf in general at the Ocean Course is fine, firm and well-drained. The greens and their surrounds are likewise exemplary, or at least they were during my one summer and one winter visits.

I hate to violate a sacred GCA principle by saying this out loud but fairway turf that's consistently fun to play on in all conditions goes a long way toward making a great course and a course which usually has soft, inconsistent or scruffy turf has a big hurdle to overcome to be considered for greatness.

As for "value", I'm not willing to pay extra for green but money spent on great turf is money that's buying value.