If The Old Course Never Existed.......

[Andrew Summerell]

If The Old Course never existed.......

........ how would the New, Eden & Jubilee be viewed by the golfing world. Would they be considered better than they are now, without having to be measured up against The Old Course, or would they be forgotten without the attention the Old Course brings.

[Bill_McBride]

Would they even exist without the need for overflow from the Old Course?

i.e. it's hard to think of golf without the Old Course.

[John_Cullum]

Was the New Course built to handle overflow? I doubt it. Is there any research available on the New, it might have been built just so they would have a place to play on Sundays.

[ForkaB]

Was the New Course built to handle overflow? I doubt it. Is there any research available on the New, it might have been built just so they would have a place to play on Sundays.

John

The New Course was in fact built as a "relief" course.  The history is complicated and fascinating, but the essence is that the R&A bought the land from the Cheape Estate in order to give themsleves a place to play away from the hoi polloi, and then were thwarted by the local citizenry who pushed through an Act of Parliament which gave the town the right of compulsory purchase of the land.

Sounds a bit like Deepdale, no?

[TEPaul]

If the old course never existed I'd think it would be virtually impossible to determine what that may've meant for the entire evolution of golf course architecture.

[JESII]

Why should that stop us from arguing about it Tom, what the hell do you think this site is for? I would have expected you to understand this after 22,000 posts. I'm going to research all of your posts one by one and highlight any and all idle speculation. I'll do that just after I hit 22,000 posts.

Hey Ran, please kick me off here at 21,999. Or in other words in 75 years.

[Anthony Butler]

If the old course never existed I'd think it would be virtually impossible to determine what that may've meant for the entire evolution of golf course architecture.

Tom,

I shared the same thought when I was last at the Old Course, when I wasn't being distracted by the task of stopping the 120 lb Japanese gentleman in my group from being blown backwards into the Firth of Forth. Absolutely nutted a driver/3 iron into the Valley of Sin at the end of the round. Which made me realise the effect of the wind and how it varies the challenge on the course day-to-day was also invented on this very spot.

[ForkaB]

distracted by the task of stopping the 120 lb Japanese gentleman in my group from being blown backwards into the Firth of Forth.

In that the Firth of Forth is 20+ miles from St. Andrews, that must have been SOME wind!

[Kevin Pallier]

Andrew,

I feel that they would certainly be viewed in a better light but they don't have the quality of holes that the (Old) provides nor the framing of them ie: # 1 in front of the Old clubhouse and of course # 18. The Old has many World class holes (7, 11, 14 + of course 17) and the same can't be said for the other courses.

[Bill Gayne]

I think the most dramatic difference would probably be in the governance of the game. Would the R&A be the governing body today? would have the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers be the governing body today or turn it over to another club? Would the Open championship be what it is today?

[TEPaul]

"Why should that stop us from arguing about it Tom, what the hell do you think this site is for?"

Sully:

Precisely. That is what this site is for. By saying the evolution of golf course architecture may've turned out very differently if TOC never existed was not meant to imply that we shouldn't discuss that premise or argue about it.  

HOWEVER, my personal feeling is that it is complex enough to try to determine how and why golf course architecture did evolve as it did WITH the existence of TOC.

I'm sure you haven't missed the odd fact that so many golf course architects have paid particular homage to TOC as the prototype of ALL golf course architecture while at the same time stating that for many reasons it could not be or was not copied more precisely, even in principle!

This is all undeniably very odd----to say the least.  

[Anthony Butler]

distracted by the task of stopping the 120 lb Japanese gentleman in my group from being blown backwards into the Firth of Forth.

In that the Firth of Forth is 20+ miles from St. Andrews, that must have been SOME wind!

You are correct, I thought it was just across the Firth of Forth from Muirfield... just looked at a map and the Old Course is almost far enough up to be in the Firth of Tay. Somehow, I remember the BBC guys saying "Firth of Forth" during one of those cutaway shots from the crane during the British Open. They must have said "looking south towards the Firth of Forth".

Given the prevailing wind that day, the Eden River is where my oriental friend would have landed. Fortunately it was also raining sideways that day... everything was a little more weighed down, so he didn't go airborne through the Loop.

[rgkeller]

Tiger Woods would not have won an Open.

[Andrew Summerell]

My question was really interested in how the New, Jubilee & Eden would be viewed without TOC being there.

If it helps, for those who are having trouble considering the argument at hand, image that TOC did exist, but elsewhere. Maybe in the west of Scotland, or further up or down the coast, or maybe in Holland.

Without needing to worry about the architectural development of golf or the governing of the game, with golf being today exactly as it is, how would the reputation of the New, Jubilee & Eden be viewed.

[Mike Nuzzo]

This would be Kolf Club Atlas...

[ed_getka]

Andrew,
   I don't think they would be thought particularly highly of, but this is purely a guess as I've not seen any of those courses. I did play TOC on my first venture over, but given limited time to see courses, the rest of the St Andrews rotation was not part of my equation that included Dornoch, Murcar, Cruden Bay, Elie, North Berwick, etc...
   I would imagine New and Eden would be somewhere in the top 100 courses I would want to see in the UK.

[Tony Ristola]

Probably viewed pretty much the same.

Another hypothetical (perhaps a new thread?); had a developer look at the property in the last 20 years, what chances would you give that the golf course would be so far removed from the coastline/dunes and water?

I'd bet the 18th would be a Cape type hole on the other side of the clubhouse.

http://www.ezycatalog.com/product_images/glp/22001.jpg
No chance 18 would be along the entrance road. Too many liabilities.

Interactive Map
http://www.standrews.org.uk/welcome/st_andrews_links_trust/interactive_links_map.html

Aerial Photo
http://www.standrews.com/courses/old.htm

[Anthony Butler]

My question was really interested in how the New, Jubilee & Eden would be viewed without TOC being there.

If it helps, for those who are having trouble considering the argument at hand, image that TOC did exist, but elsewhere. Maybe in the west of Scotland, or further up or down the coast, or maybe in Holland.

Without needing to worry about the architectural development of golf or the governing of the game, with golf being today exactly as it is, how would the reputation of the New, Jubilee & Eden be viewed.

The odds are they probably wouldn't exist without the Old Course. although given St. Andrews' history for meting our torture and punishment to people over the centuries, you figure they would have got 'round to golf as the preferred past time at some point... The incredible flatness of this piece of links land is why it became the natural site for a golf course. No trees would grow in such an exposed spot, the greens could simply be marked out and a hole stuck in the center, the bunkers were created by sheep... it's really a case of a sport built around what nature provided.

Also, the fact that the course starts and finishes in the in the center of town... something three other St. Andrews' courses mimic. Since all people did in the 15th century was walk, people probably didn't care to walk another mile home after a round of golf. It's surprising how many courses in Scotland literally start just off the main street in town.

[Jim Nugent]

Tiger Woods would not have won an Open.

Maybe the other courses in the rota don't do a good enough job of identifying the best golfer.  

I bet before Woods' career is over, he erases this little footnote.