Winning Strategy vs Strategic Options...

[John Kavanaugh]

I know they are not the same...guess why..

[Kyle Harris]

Variance in ability between different players.

[John Kavanaugh]

Shivas,

Are you saying that each time Tiger hits his stinger 2 iron it is not because of the strategic design of the hole but only what he thinks is a winning strategy..

[John_Cullum]

Match play or Stroke Play?

[DMoriarty]

The former is retrospective.  The latter, prospective.

[JESII]

Shivas,

Are you saying that each time Tiger hits his stinger 2 iron it is not because of the strategic design of the hole but only what he thinks is a winning strategy..

John,

Have you heard the Moe Norman story where he hits his ball out over the trees right to the edge of a pond on the inside corner of a dogleg leaving an easy pitching wedge to the green when the fairway route forces the player into a much longer approach club? Would this approach by Norman be considered a winning strategy or utilizing a strategic option?

[John Kavanaugh]

Jes,

I think that is a strategic option...one of the most common in golf.  I do it myself sometimes by accident..

[JESII]

Well John,  

Give us a hint to help us find the direction you were looking for with that initial post. I am curious, and I think Shivas will lend some insight based on his post.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jes,

I would like to but my mind is currently confused about this subject.  I've been playing mostly wolf this year and so my choices of strategic options for a winning strategy are out of whack with common sense.  The payoff for a successful wolf shot far outweigh the penalty of failure.  Winning usually pays 3 to 2 and failure can be masked by good partner play.

[JESII]

Just the same, poor selection or execution could be masked by worse selection or execution by your opponent(s). Think of these things in terms of your personal expectations. As the Wolf, don't you have a plan for playing the hole before your tee shot? Oh, now I see what you mean, "Winning Strategy" means playing a hole just to beat an opponent while Strategic Options represent the different ways a particuler hole might be successfully played.

I interpreted Winning Strategy in hindsight, in other words you could really only determine if it was "Winning" if you won.

On that note, I think your first sentence on this thread is an understatement, they are not the same because Winning Strategy is just one of a potentially wide array of Strategic Options. Does that make sense?

[John Kavanaugh]

Jes,

You must believe that hitting an iron off of the tee on a penal hole is a strategic option...If you do then I will too and this thread will be moot...

[TEPaul]

"Also, at the tour level, there is essentially one strategic option for 95% of the players on every shot, which is really no option at all.  When you see two guys playing different shots and taking different options on Tour, usually all it means is that the guy pussing out simply doesn't feel like he's got the game that day and he's trying to get around without blowing himself up unnecessarily.  He WANTS to hit the same shot; he just doesn't think he can do it that day.  But they all have the same numero uno strategy to start with until they start hitting it sideways."

Shivas;

This is precisely why Riviera's #10 is such a world-class multi-optional strategic hole. Year after year even Tour players have never agreed on the best way to play it.

I realized that in 1998 in the LA Open when the last group on Sunday, Davis Love, Ted Tryba and Tiger Woods (all in contention) played the hole entirely differently from one another. No one was "pussing out" as you say, they obviously just felt for them their strategic option was the best.

The same has always been said for the way ANGC's #11 used to be when the fairway was about 60 yards wide. The best in the world could never agree whether the best place to approach the green from was the right or the left of the fairway.

This kind of thing is what really good multi-optional strategic holes are all about---eg even by great players the various options are used a lot. This is how a hole is tested in play over time to determine the strength and effectiveness of its various conceptual options and strategies.

[JESII]

Jes,

You must believe that hitting an iron off of the tee on a penal hole is a strategic option...If you do then I will too and this thread will be moot...

I guess I'd agree John. If you want this thread to be moot, fine, but why would us agreeing on that make this thread moot? To be honest I wish you would make that offer about some of your other ideas, but this one is interesting, at least to me.



Shivas,

I disagree with your assesment of strategic holes in regards to Tiger's club selection. Just for a simple example, #10 at Riviera may well offer an easier birdie (if you accumulate the challenge on each shot) with a long iron tee shot and wedge pitch approach as opposed to attempting to drive the green. The demand on the drive appears to be so great to actually hit the green (or at least leave an easy up and down) that birdie might be less likely than hitting his three iron to 60 yards and pitching close. He will never hit the three iron in trouble and will almost always hit the wedge inside of 8 feet. Both are pretty easy shots for him. The driver seems to have a small margin for error to be either on the green or in an easy up and down position. Agree?

[John_Cullum]

I find it interesting that noone has addressed my earlier query. This confirms what I have always known, we live in a stroke play world.

[JESII]

John C,

I think the fact that John Kavanaugh's asking this question in terms of Wolf means this is as much a match play conversation as anything.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sarge,

Honestly, I forgot about your question.  I did try to use a stroke play strategy in wolf the other day by hitting to safe spots instead of fun spots and got it to two under after four holes...made a good bogey on the 5th out of a hazard and then hit the wrong ball on the 6th (It did win me the hole because I hit the ball of a guy on the other team who was getting a stroke and then he hit mine...we were both disqulifed and one of my partners won the hole for us with par.  First time I ever won $12 for being disqualified..)  Took an x or an esc double and went the rest of the day without a clue on what I was shooting...I actually had to ask the pro what the guys posted for me....78...I haaaaaaaaattteeeeee stroke play...

[TEPaul]

John Cullum:

What exactly is your match play/stroke play query?

[JESII]

Don't you just think of stroke play as match play versus the card. Based on your level of play and expectations you can place a par for each hole and see what you can do to beat that. That's how I've always played.

For those of you so adamant about preferring match play, what is the motivation behind that? Why is Match Play better? Or is it just an equal opportunity that you think other people do not pay enough attention to?

[John_Cullum]

There really isn't much to think about in match play. You just want to beat your opponent by 1 stroke on the hole being played (or dupe him into a penalty so he loses the hole; that's a fascinating strategy). The strategy is mostly contrlled by your assessment of your opponents ability.

Take our example at Riviera. You're 3 up after 8 holes, but your opponent wins the 9th. He then hits his tee shot 15 feet from the hole on 10. What strategic option do you have at this point? Your only option is to assess your best chance for a 3. Had your opponent instead buried his ball in the face of the bunker, your crazy to try anything other than a conservative play for a 4.

[TEPaul]

"if a hole really was strategic, then the aggressive play would offer Eldrick some opportunity to make birdie or eagle that he couldn't get with a 2 iron off the tee, right?  Well, since Eldrick NEVER hits 2 iron off a par 5, all we're talking about is par 4s.  What par 4 denies Eldrick the opportunity to make birdie if he hits it 260 down the middle into the fairway?  I know of none.  Therefore, there is no hole anywhere that Tiger hits a 2 iron from off the tee that is strategic -- otherwise, he'd be pulling driver."

Shivas:

When you use those kinds of assumptions to arrive at your conclustion that no holes on which Woods may use a 2 iron off the tee are strategic, it seems to me you're being a bit illogical, and perhaps mostly by assuming what's actually going on in the mind or "strategic" mind of Woods.

For instance, you seem to assume that Woods feels he can make a birdie with his 2 iron off the tee as well as any other club. What if Woods is not strategically thinking of trying to make a birdie on every hole he hits a 2 iron on the tee?  

He may feel he can make a birdie far more easily with a driver off the tee but he simply doesn't want to take the risk of not making a par (with his driver).

Furthermore the effectiveness of various "strategies" of any golf hole is not exactly determined by any player playing any golf hole once.

[JESII]

There really isn't much to think about in match play. You just want to beat your opponent by 1 stroke on the hole being played (or dupe him into a penalty so he loses the hole; that's a fascinating strategy). The strategy is mostly contrlled by your assessment of your opponents ability.

Take our example at Riviera. You're 3 up after 8 holes, but your opponent wins the 9th. He then hits his tee shot 15 feet from the hole on 10. What strategic option do you have at this point? Your only option is to assess your best chance for a 3. Had your opponent instead buried his ball in the face of the bunker, your crazy to try anything other than a conservative play for a 4.

How does this make match play better than stroke play?

[TEPaul]

John Cullum:

Are you asking if strategic considerations can be different in the match play format vs the stroke play format? If so, of course they can be. Frankly the two vastly different formats is one of the primary reasons golf can be so interesting. The only problem is the "handicap system" is formatted to the stroke play format (a single GROSS score) and there is no question whatsoever that match play handicap requirements (hole by hole) cannot be very well determined from a single gross score (the stroke play format).

[JESII]

Re: #10 at Riviera, wouldn't you stand on that tee every time assesing your best chance for a 3?

[John_Cullum]

Not if I'm 2 up with 9 to play and my opponent is at best going to make 4, but probably 5. (Note: My opponent is John Kavanaugh and I play him scratch.)

[John_Cullum]

This highlights the problem with being a GCA participant. Neither I or JakaB have ever played Riviera.

Do we try to beat our opponent when we play Riviera, (likely for the first and last time) or do we play for the shot values and take a play for the 10th green off the tee?

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