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A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #150 on: April 25, 2006, 01:28:22 PM »
"but it seems to me Bryan Izatt is by far and away the best and most credible tech minded guy we have on this website"

TEP
 Great. Its too bad he can't find a tech website. We need more contributors who are interested in golf course architecture.

Of course, this begs the question of why you are commenting on this thread...
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #151 on: April 25, 2006, 02:03:46 PM »
"TEP
Great. Its too bad he can't find a tech website. We need more contributors who are interested in golf course architecture."

Eckstein:

Come on now---haven't you heard---this distance problem and how it relates to golf course architecture is the big hot topic in the world of golf and golf architecture and has been for nigh onto ten years now? We need Bryan Izatt.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #152 on: April 25, 2006, 02:35:19 PM »
Garland,

I can't see the comment you're quoting on Geoff's site.  The only one I see there is yours.  Who was the poster?  What were his credentials?  Are you espousing these as your opinions?  If so I'd debate them with you.

Two points though - his table from bomb squad is erroneous.  The first column is ball speed, I believe, not club head speed.
...
The comment was in response to Geoff's original post alerting readers to the USGA paper. Yesterday it was near the end of what was visible on the home page. By now it might be on one of the archive pages. The poster signed Scott S. Do posters there give credentials? I am not espousing them as my opinions. They did not make a lot of sense to me. Your correction about ball speed helps.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #153 on: April 25, 2006, 03:03:45 PM »
This thread gives me a headache.

Bryan
Have you ever made a post on golf course architecture or are you all about equipment and technology?

Ran needs to do a better job screening.

Yes, check out the write-up on Casa de Campo in the My Courses section.  Or even in this thread on the impact of technology on architecture.

Welcome to the site.  If it gives you a headache, then don't read it.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #154 on: April 25, 2006, 03:05:21 PM »
"TEP
Great. Its too bad he can't find a tech website. We need more contributors who are interested in golf course architecture."

Eckstein:

Come on now---haven't you heard---this distance problem and how it relates to golf course architecture is the big hot topic in the world of golf and golf architecture and has been for nigh onto ten years now? We need Bryan Izatt.

The cheque's in the mail.  ;D

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #155 on: April 25, 2006, 03:07:44 PM »
Garland,

I can't see the comment you're quoting on Geoff's site.  The only one I see there is yours.  Who was the poster?  What were his credentials?  Are you espousing these as your opinions?  If so I'd debate them with you.

Two points though - his table from bomb squad is erroneous.  The first column is ball speed, I believe, not club head speed.
...
The comment was in response to Geoff's original post alerting readers to the USGA paper. Yesterday it was near the end of what was visible on the home page. By now it might be on one of the archive pages. The poster signed Scott S. Do posters there give credentials? I am not espousing them as my opinions. They did not make a lot of sense to me. Your correction about ball speed helps.


I looked around Geoff's site and couldn't find it anywhere.  Maybe Geoff deleted it.  It was flawed in its comments on flawed.  'nuff said.

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #156 on: April 25, 2006, 03:08:19 PM »
The USGA has just published a scientific paper on their website that shows that the ball does NOT get "super-sized" at higher swing speeds.

Please read: http://www.usga.org/news/2006/april/distance.html

Balls don't even exhibit straight-line gains as the swing speed increases because the COR of the driver goes down as swing speed increases and while lift increases as ball speed goes up, drag increases even faster.

Glad to see the Laws of Physics still apply. ;)

Dick Rugge, Head Technoogy Guru, for the USGA spoke on this very subject at the USGA Regional Affairs meeting on Friday in San Mateo.
Interesting results from all their studies.
Best
Dave

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #157 on: April 25, 2006, 03:12:25 PM »
Also, there is this bit on Geoff's homepage that some crackpot    You should be easier on yourself  ;) came up with you guys might be interested in picking apart.

"I've only skimmed it (I see equations on page 1, eh   Good to see that Geoff understands his limitations on the subject   ), but reader G. Bayley writes:"

    The paper starts by giving trajectory formulae, but then never uses or references them again. The paper gives references to experiments showing that COR declines with higher swing speed. The largest portion of the paper then replicates this result with five unidentified tour balls. A clear explanation of the previous results would have been enough for me, why replicate an accepted result. Is that doing science? This replication is the first of three results claimed. The second result being that launch angle decreases with increased swing speed. It is totally unclear as to how this came about. The final result claimed was the astounding (satire) result that ball spin rate increases with increasing club speed.

I'm not sure I get your point above.  There were three results he wanted to report from the study, and he did.  Why is that replication?
From the paper. "Experiments have shown that the coefficients of restitution of impact between a golf ball and a clubhead is a smoothly declining (nearly linear) function of clubhead speed (Chou, et. al., 1994; Cochoran, 1998; Lemons, 1998)."  This is the work he replicated without giving us clear indication why he chose to do so. Upon reflection, my best guess is that his intent was to update the experiment with modern balls. However, he made no explanation of why it would be necessary to do that.

In an appendix, tour driving distance is charted for distance ranges and implicated to agree with the COR result. Since this data has no controls, no reasonable assumption as to what it correlates to can be made and is of little scientific value. Also, the paper claimed that 2000 data was from pros using wound balls, but a graph on the Titleist website would seem to indicate that at the beginning of 2000 27% of the tour players were using the modern ball and by the end of the year 42% were using the modern ball.

We've already agreed that the PGA stats are flawed if the intent was to show only the difference in distance created by balls in that time period.  That doesn't invalidate the primary conclusion that there is no disproportionate distance gain in modern tour balls for high speed swingers.
There is no primary conclusion to invalidate. The data has so many uncontrolled variables that no conclusion can be drawn. For example, one of the uncontrolled variables is the physical training the athletes underwent. If the short hitters perceived that the best thing they could do to get better was to lift weights, and the long hitters concluded that the best thing they could do was to practice their short games, then the results could be attributed to the differences in workouts.
   The article could stand a little better writing given that it was referenced as the lead item on the USGA home page. For example, I would appreciate it if someone could explain what the following means, "some specification had to be made in how the ball would be positioned on the tee. The tee position was first set at the highest speed in accordance with the ODS" which gives me visions of a tee streaking through space with a ball sitting on it. Perhaps it has no meaning and is just poor writing.

I assume it has meaning to those people who understand the baseline specifications for the ODS.  I would infer that the tee needs to be set at a certain height and position forward or back to achieve the ODS standard at a given swing speed.  He did explain in follow up why he needed to be concerned about tee height and position.  You're being a little too critical here I think.  Who ever said that PhD's should necessarily be good writers.  Maybe English wasn't one of his majors.
Who ever said that Ph. D's should necessarily be good writers? My science Ph. D. committee! Writing is one of the primary responsibilities of Ph. D.'s If they are going to continue to research as they have been trained to do, they have an obligation to write, and let people know their results!

   What I would have liked to see was graphs of ball trajectory predicted by the equations that were presented and then ignored, and graphs of ball trajectory as seen in experiments with balls. I would also like to have seen what the model would predict for older balls.

The USGA hypothesized one question, and then answered it.  You, and others, have other questions.  Why don't you ask them.  Maybe they'd do what you request.  What would be the point of graphing the equations vs the experimental results?  The experimental results are reality; formulas are generally mathematical simplifications of the reality.

[/b]
Yes they answered the question posed. So why did they waste my time by making me read the mathematical model that they made no use of? I have sent questions to them and gotten the automated, we'll answer in 10 to 15 days response, but no answers. So I know they got my questions. Why didn't they respond? Probably because they don't see me or my questions as being important enough.  Or, perhaps they saw my questions as thinly veiled attemts to elicit data from them that could be used to counter their company line.
What would be the point of graphing the trajectories predicted by the mathematical model and the trajectories produced in the experiments? It would be the way science is done. You make a model or hypothesis, explain what it shows, and then you do the experiments to show whether or not the model holds. For this paper the mathematical model was just fluff, a way of saying look at me, I have a Ph. D.!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 03:24:41 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #158 on: April 25, 2006, 03:17:47 PM »
This thread gives me a headache.
Then why are you reading it?
Bryan
Have you ever made a post on golf course architecture or are you all about equipment and technology?

Ran needs to do a better job screening.
I don't know about Bryan, but I have made posts on golf course architecture. You know what? Very few people seem to be interested. Maybe you can help us out by linking us to the illuminating threads on gca that you have initiated. Then we can better spend our time replying there.
 :P
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brent Hutto

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #159 on: April 25, 2006, 03:40:25 PM »
From the paper. "Experiments have shown that the coefficients of restitution of impact between a golf ball and a clubhead is a smoothly declining (nearly linear) function of clubhead speed (Chou, et. al., 1994; Cochoran, 1998; Lemons, 1998)."  This is the work he replicated without giving us clear indication why he chose to do so. Upon reflection, my best guess is that his intent was to update the experiment with modern balls. However, he made no explanation of why it would be necessary to do that.

You misunderstand the purpose of the study. The author knows good and well what the COR versus clubhead speed curve for modern Tour golf balls look like. He presents that as background. Then he goes on to perform tests to show the curve of distance versus clubhead speed for modern Tour golf balls. And he explains at length that distance is a function of both COR and aerodynamics. He wants to be able to make a statement that draws a soup-to-nuts conclusion about the distance that modern Tour golf balls travel with high clubhead speeds. I think he made that case pretty succinctly and adequately.

Personally, I think the study was a waste of resources. There is nothing in his COR or aerodynamics results that he didn't go would be there before he started (as would any of a couple hundred professionals in the golf equipment business as well as many well-informed laymen). Yet for political reasons, the USGA obviously thought a complete study was necessary to shut up all the bullshit about "exponential" this and "disproportionate" that. What I believe they underestimated was the willingness of know-nothings to ignore anything they don't understand in pursuit of their continued bullshit. But maybe I'm just cynical.
Quote
What I would have liked to see was graphs of ball trajectory predicted by the equations that were presented and then ignored, and graphs of ball trajectory as seen in experiments with balls. I would also like to have seen what the model would predict for older balls.

Garland, the equations have unknown parameters that vary by golf ball characterstics. There is no one curve shape predicted by an equation written out with symbols instead of actual parameter values. Once the experiment is done, working backward to get the parameters and then tracing out curves corresponding to those values will get you a curve that looks so much like the empirical curve as makes no difference. Hell, you can't really tell the different balls apart because they're so similar. Nothing would be gained by twice as many almost-identical curves on the plot. The equations he presents aren't something that needs testing, they are known, settled, accepted by anyone who has bothered to become educated on the subject and not needed at all once you have actual experimental data in front of you.

Quote
Yes they answered the question posed. So why did they waste my time by making me read the mathematical model that they made no use of?

It is standard in technical literature to give the theoretical background that you are stating as underlying your experiments. It's like quoting Marbury vs. Madison when you go argue a case in front of the Supremes. It simply establishes the frame of reference in which the discussion takes place.

Quote
It would be the way science is done. You make a model or hypothesis, explain what it shows, and then you do the experiments to show whether or not the model holds. For this paper the mathematical model was just fluff, a way of saying look at me, I have a Ph. D.!

The formulas they presented were not a hypothesis or a model to be tested. It was the technical underpinnings that someone might need to understand the experimental results. The experimental results were a laborious undertaking to demonstrate a trivial physical relationship. They phrased it like an experiment but it was really more like a demonstration that you would perform in high school physics class where the result is not in question.

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #160 on: April 25, 2006, 04:49:33 PM »
"Balls don't even exhibit straight-line gains as the swing speed increases because the COR of the driver goes down as swing speed increases."

Hey DaveM, my good little buddy from Bean Town---did you know that when swing speed increases to a super high point that the COR in some drivers goes down to less than nothing??

Yep, that's right. You take a J.B. Holmes or a Tiger and their driver COR specs are not that near the USGA/R&A max COR legal limitation. This comes from some of my moles in the walls of the USGA too.

You want to know why? OK, I'll tell you why. Because neither one of them wants to be out there in the heat of battle in a tournament with a collapsed driver face and at the max COR legal limitation the danger of that happened if they crank one up into overdrive is very real.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #161 on: April 25, 2006, 04:54:43 PM »
...
Hey DaveM, my good little buddy from Bean Town---did you know that when swing speed increases to a super high point that the COR in some drivers goes down to less than nothing??
...
And then the ball goes backwards instead of forwards?  ;)   ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #162 on: April 25, 2006, 04:57:25 PM »
Brent Hutto said:

"Personally, I think the study was a waste of resources. There is nothing in his COR or aerodynamics results that he didn't go would be there before he started (as would any of a couple hundred professionals in the golf equipment business as well as many well-informed laymen). Yet for political reasons, the USGA obviously thought a complete study was necessary to shut up all the bullshit about "exponential" this and "disproportionate" that. What I believe they underestimated was the willingness of know-nothings to ignore anything they don't understand in pursuit of their continued bullshit."

Brent, you go dude! Chase these mindless and caviling little gnats all over the place---step on them and squash them all--I don't care a jot. At the very least send them all to their rooms with no supper.

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #163 on: April 25, 2006, 05:02:58 PM »
"And then the ball goes backwards instead of forwards?    ;)  ;D"

Yes, in a manner of speaking. How would you feel if you ripped at a golf ball at 130 mph like El Tigre and had to manage your super fast finish to a dead stop with a golf ball trapped in your collapsed face before you ripped your arms off? That would be one of those swings where Tiger actually leaves his feet and does one of his semi-pirouettes. One must be in pretty good shape and damned strong to do that without hurting ones-self.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 05:05:46 PM by TEPaul »

JohnV

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #164 on: April 25, 2006, 05:06:13 PM »
...
Hey DaveM, my good little buddy from Bean Town---did you know that when swing speed increases to a super high point that the COR in some drivers goes down to less than nothing??
...
And then the ball goes backwards instead of forwards?  ;)   ;D


I think it means that the clubhead implodes. ;)

In another life, I was in a presentation that IBM made about multi-processing computers.  He put a graph that showed the type of multi-processor that they were dissing's performance curve quickly turned downwards which was ok.  But when it passed below 0, I had to point out that this meant that the computer was undoing work that had already been done.  I asked if they undid the first work first or the last work first. ;D

Once he understood what I was saying, he tore up the slide and swore never to use it again.

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #165 on: April 25, 2006, 05:07:14 PM »
Brent:

Are you and Bryan a tag-team?  ;)

JohnV

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #166 on: April 25, 2006, 05:09:10 PM »
Garland,

As for multiple variables, there certainly are lots of them.  Unfortunately there really is no simple way to get rid of them in a comparison of PGA Tour stats.

You are probably correct that Fred Funk works out more than John Daly. :)

Funny, for years, people like Geoff have mocked the whole workout thing.  Now they are starting to try to use it as a way of discrediting any numbers.

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #167 on: April 25, 2006, 05:10:28 PM »
JohnV:

Is that like when matter goes faster than the speed of light and time as we know it begins to run backwards?  

;)

"Funny, for years, people like Geoff have mocked the whole workout thing.  Now they are starting to try to use it as a way of discrediting any numbers."

Geoff's right---that whole workout thing making these guys strong that results in them hitting the ball farther is a crock, and it always was.

Maybe Tiger did change the way all modern tour pros approach the game by leading them all into the gym, but Tiger has admitted he didn't go into the gym in the first place with the intention of getting strong. He only went into the gym because someone told him that's where the really hot chicks are.

This is just the damn irony of life. He goes to all the trouble of sweating his ass off in the gym not realizing the hottest chick of all is taking care of some other tour pro's babies just about next door to his house.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 05:18:36 PM by TEPaul »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #168 on: April 25, 2006, 05:21:06 PM »
Brent,

As you probably figured out, I am not a physicist, nor do I play one on TV. I guess my biggest problem is that the paper was put up accessible from the home page of the USGA and yet a resonably educated person, like I think of myself, could make so little sense of it much of it (other than obvious results 1 and 3). The writer probably did not know who his audience was going to be (people like me), so he couldn't write to his audience. As you wrote, "They phrased it like an experiment but it was really more like a demonstration that you would perform in high school physics class where the result is not in question." The result seemed trivial, and I think you have captured why. Part of what made it seem so trivial was that it would logically seem to me that the 5 balls under tests would show no significant difference (you either have to have a radical new idea to cause a market discontinuity, or you are just following the market leader trying to get a piece of the pie). The equations seemed to have a fudge factor, the two aerodynamic coefficients that they could graph in a graph that I couldn't make much sense of (I printed it in black and white). Couldn't they provide equations for them?

I do think you underestimate me when you write, "You misunderstand the purpose of the study."

I guess I'll send the USGA another email and see if I get put in their ignore file (is it round?) again.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #169 on: April 25, 2006, 05:29:21 PM »
"(you either have to have a radical new idea to cause a market discontinuity,......... "

Oh God help us, I sure hope we never see another 'market discontinuity' or the world as we've know it will likely be at an end.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #170 on: April 25, 2006, 05:45:20 PM »
"(you either have to have a radical new idea to cause a market discontinuity,......... "

Oh God help us, I sure hope we never see another 'market discontinuity' or the world as we've know it will likely be at an end.
;D ;D ;D ;D
I assume you meant the "golf" world. I am in the business of trying to provide and or keep up with market discontinuities in the EDA world.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #171 on: April 25, 2006, 07:47:42 PM »
Garland:

If you took the euphemism out of "market discontinuity" what would it mean to normal people who speak English?

;)

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #172 on: April 26, 2006, 01:45:01 AM »
Garland,

Quote
Quote
In an appendix, tour driving distance is charted for distance ranges and implicated to agree with the COR result. Since this data has no controls, no reasonable assumption as to what it correlates to can be made and is of little scientific value. Also, the paper claimed that 2000 data was from pros using wound balls, but a graph on the Titleist website would seem to indicate that at the beginning of 2000 27% of the tour players were using the modern ball and by the end of the year 42% were using the modern ball.

We've already agreed that the PGA stats are flawed if the intent was to show only the difference in distance created by balls in that time period.  That doesn't invalidate the primary conclusion that there is no disproportionate distance gain in modern tour balls for high speed swingers.
There is no primary conclusion to invalidate. The data has so many uncontrolled variables that no conclusion can be drawn. For example, one of the uncontrolled variables is the physical training the athletes underwent. If the short hitters perceived that the best thing they could do to get better was to lift weights, and the long hitters concluded that the best thing they could do was to practice their short games, then the results could be attributed to the differences in workouts.
Quote

I think you missed my point.  The primary conclusion I'm referring to is that modern tour balls don't exhibit disproportionate distance gains for high speed swings.  The PGA Tour stats are interesting, but scientifically unsound, as I've pointed out several times.  Enjoy them for what they are.  Everbody else seems to.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #173 on: April 26, 2006, 01:50:49 AM »
Garland:

If you took the euphemism out of "market discontinuity" what would it mean to normal people who speak English?

;)

What it would mean is that if the ball manufacturers could figure out a way to harness Flubber (trademarked by Disney) in a golf ball, there would be a market discontinuity as other manufacturers tried to figure out how to compete on a new plane.  Sort of like when Apple invented the Apple II microcomputer.  It took IBM, and others years to catch up.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Facts and Distance
« Reply #174 on: April 26, 2006, 02:10:36 AM »
Brent:

Are you and Bryan a tag-team?  ;)

No, but I do like the frank approach Brent takes to his comments.

Just as a slight side track, Wishon is marketing a slow swing speed driver, apparently targeted primarily to women and seniors.  It's designed with a very thin face to allow someone with a swing speed of 75 MPH to flex the face enough to achieve something approaching the 0.830 COR at that swing speed.  Two caveats, the face will cave in if hit at 85 MPH; and it's non-conforming, because the USGA says that it fails the new characteristic time COR test.  The CT test of course doesn't cause the face to fail, although a real hit would at the speed contemplated by the COR standard.