speed of greens

[Bill Wernecke Jr]

Today at our greens committee meeting we had a lively discussion regarding the Stimpmeter and the speed of greens at prestigious private clubs.

I would like to take an informal poll of our knowledgeable GCA members.  For those of you who belong to private clubs, if you could let me know what the target Stimp reading is for the greens during the main golfing season for the members, it would be appreciated.  Any additional information regarding the architect or green features would also be helpful.

If there are any prior threads on this, I would appreciate the links.  I will put together a summary and share it with the group when completed.

Thanks!

[RJ_Daley]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=22541;start=25
Bill,
Here is a recent one that ought to get you started.

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:  An appropriate speed for the greens depends on the contours of the greens on YOUR course, not the more prestigious club down the street (or across the country!).  

Green speed should also vary a bit during the season -- if you try to get the greens as fast in mid-summer heat as you do in the fall, eventually you'll be sorry (and probably looking for a new greenkeeper).

If there is anyone on your green committee who doesn't understand that, please bop them on the head for me.

But as for some general guidelines:

Flattish greens = 11 on Stimpmeter
Gently contoured greens (pins 2% or less) = 10 on Stimpmeter
Heavily contoured greens (Augusta, Winged Foot) = 9 on Stimpmeter

These should be targets for daily member play if you want the greens to be challenging.  For the club championship you can go up +1.  For a major championship you can go up +2, but you had better be careful who is cutting the cups.

[TEPaul]

Bill:

I pretty much endorse what Tom Doak said there.

In my opinion, the very first and last dictate on the entire subject of greenspeed for any golf club should be that in no case whatsoever will "softening" or "recontouring" of the putting greens be an option in the name of greenspeed.

Having said that I personally feel if ANY course wants to go to real championship set-up they can get away with a stimpmeter reading of up to 11. But I feel that anything over that on any course is just unnecessary---and apparently the Director of Competitions for the USGA agrees with me on that---even including US Opens.

You should know that once putting greens hit a stimp reading of about 9 1/2 to 10 an exponential effect on playability begins to take over. I call that exponential effect "ball creep". Ball creep can change things playability-wise very swiftly. This is primarily why I think 11 on the stimp should never be exceeded anywhere.

For the play of a general membership I don't think much past 9 1/2 is necessary.

Furthermore, there's no question at all that most golfers will think a 9 1/2 on the stimp is about an 11 1/2 and that a real 11 is over a 13.

For your information my club runs speeds when all things are on go between 9 1/2 and 11. To get close to 11 our mow height is app .105" which gets us about a 10 on the stimp and a rolling application will take that 10 up about a foot to 11.

To reach your top speed the general recommendation from the USGA etc is that the last foot of speed should come from the roller, and not strictly from mow height.

When it comes to the stress dangers of doing this kind of thing I'll tell you the parameters I've learned so far later.

[Dan_Lucas]

I'm with the Tom's also. At Kingsley we try to keep them between 9.5 and 10.5. Our greens are severely contoured. At that speed all the back slopes and runoffs work like they are supposed to.

[Mike Hendren]

Does a seasoned superintendent NEED a stimpmeter?

Mike

[S. Huffstutler]

Does a seasoned carpenter need a level?

It's a tool, that's all.

Steve

[TEPaul]

"Does a seasoned superintendent NEED a stimpmeter?"

Not really. Some just like to know as a reference for themselves and some don't use them at all. Both groups when asked by other people what the stimpmeter reading of the greens are just ask; "What would you like them to be?" When the questioner tells the super what speed he would like them to be the super replies; "Isn't that interesting, that's precisely what they are?"  

Also, all golfers who are non-supers should know if they are caught with a stimpmeter are subject to a felony indictment and they could go to jail for up to ten years.

[Jim Nugent]

Also, all golfers who are non-supers should know if they are caught with a stimpmeter are subject to a felony indictment and they could go to jail for up to ten years.

Probably true in Augusta GA.  

[RJ_Daley]

All good advice found above.  But, it makes me wonder how these "lively discussions" concerning the topic of a stimpmeter and greens speed get going in the first place.  I mean - what started the liveliness?  Did some yahoo jump up and state that he has his own stimpmeter and he checked the speeds and they weren't fast enough?  You said the discussion took place "today".  That means these fellows are already having a discussion in mid-April, IN WISCONSIN!  The turf is barely come out of winter dormancy, and a round of fert, with permafrost moisture just coming out of the ground, spring rains,  along with irrigation to water in applications, is the norm of the day.  The greens will obviously be sluggish at this point.  Yet, these fellows are worried about stimpmeters and comparison to "prestigious clubs".  Geeesh...

Why don't those worriers of greens speeds concentrate more on firmness of the greens, and excellent turf health to promote true roll and a logical ratio of speed to the contours of your greens?  Tell the super your ideal is appropriate seasonal speeds based on turf health, with an emphasis on firmness, and let him decide what the stimp will be.  Then, when there are scheduled special events like club champs, invitationals etc., let the super bump up the speed as appropriate.  Just about any super can meet the desire to bump it up for short tournament periods, if given the schedule of when that is needed.  

I'd rather have a half or foot slower green, consitent roll, and a surity that the greens will not cost a fortune to bring back from disease and death due to pushing speed all season.

[Steve Curry]

Bill,

Find the spot on your course where as the speed increases you first start to lose significant cupping space and stay at or below that speed.

Best,
Steve

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

That's another sound way to make the determination.

On a couple of my early courses I deliberately built one green a bit more severe than the rest which would serve as the "governor" on green speeds for the course, and told the superintendent exactly which pin to use to set the speed limit.  But those superintendents have moved on and the current management doesn't necessarily listen.