Winged Foot -- A Sneak US Open Preview

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

JES II:

The contrivance at Shinnecock was the USGA's inane assumption that it needed to "help" the layout.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Shinnecock wasn't contrived in the least.

Shinnecock was terrific for the first three days of the Open with Saturday presenting the golf course at its best.

Strong and constant winds throughout Saturday night led to Sunday's conditions.

Golf course conditions are most vulnerable to WIND.
Especially at a sand based golf course like Shinnecock.[/color]

I would have preferred if the USGA had maintained the playing characteristics of Shinnecock as it was for the first two rounds. Knowing the weather conditions the USGA deliberately went ahead with its game plan and the results sullied the event.

That too is untrue.
Saturday's conditions were fine.
It was Saturday evenings wind that altered the playing characteristics of the golf course.

Do you think that Mark Michaud and Tom Meeks and the USGA staff deliberately created those conditions ?

Do you think any of them were aware that the winds would blow at speed, all night long ?[/color]

The USGA brass opted to push the limits of reason and what you got was silly outcomes -- the par-3 7th is just the most glaring.

That's pure B.S.
The USGA brass had nothing to do with it.
Tom Meeks, Mark Machaud and other staff brought the course to peak condition for three days and Saturday night's  WIND did them in.[/color]

Winged Foot / West doesn't need any "help." The course has proven itself for generations of the game's best players. That's why I am not a fan of this pursuit to grow rough in the range of 6-8 inches. Frankly, I have always believed that a course that HAS to have an inordinate amount of rough is a mask of an inferior or much weaker design.

Weather, more than anything else will dictate playing conditons.[/color]

The greens by Tillie at WF / West are, IMHO, among the very best he ever did. Just firm them up a tad and roll them out to 11-12 on the Stimp and let the best man win.

I love Shinnecock and would rate it the best course I have ever played in the USA. The USGA blew it in '04 and should not have anything close to that and I would sincerely hope  WF / West will play closer to what you saw in '84 rather than  the '74 event.

It will depend upon the co-operation that Mother Nature provides.

The USGA never aspired to or caused the Sunday conditions at Shinnecock.  Mother Nature will trump man's hand every time.[/color]

[Chris Kane]

Patrick, didn't the #7 debacle occur on the Saturday?

[Jim Nugent]

Playing conditions at Shinnecock turned ugly on Saturday.  The USGA admitted afterwards they made a mistake in rolling the 7th green before that round.  Here is a BBC article about this that quotes tournament officials and players:

"US Open officials have admitted the treacherous short seventh was becoming unplayable and will sprinkle the green with water between each group.

Sun and a stiffening breeze made the greens slick on Saturday, and the par three had become a lottery with drives and putts racing off the green.

The USGA admitted it had made a mistake in rolling the green before the play.

And early in the fourth round they conceded defeat and authorised a light watering to make the hole fairer.

Only one birdie was achieved on the seventh in the third round, and of the last 22 players in the field just three were on the green after their tee shots.

One of those was co-leader Shigeki Maruyama, who then putted off the green.

Despite measures designed to address the problem, the antics continued early in Sunday's final round.

American Kevin Stadler missed a two-foot par putt which rolled 60ft off the green. He and playing partner JJ Henry both took triple-bogey sixes, as did Cliff Kresge behind them.

After Billy Mayfair received a huge roar for a bogey, it was decided that play should be halted for 20 minutes and greenkeeping staff called to water the putting surface.

Walter Driver, the chairman of the championship committee, admitted that officials had been wrong to roll the green before Saturday's third round.

"The change in the wind had a great deal to do with it," said Driver.

"The green is very firm and we had given instruction to stop rolling the green as of Tuesday and I found out today, after the round, that for some reason, a different person on the greens staff had rolled the green this morning despite the orders we had given."

First-round co-leader Jay Haas said on Saturday: "That hole is in the top 10 of all-time difficult ones, and that's out of a lot holes."

England's Lee Westwood added: "If it's an exam paper they're asking you a question that there's no answer to.

"It's playing downwind and the flag's cut on a downslope."

Two-time US Open winner Ernie Els said the Shinnecock Hills course was "as hard as it gets" in the third round.

" I am a little disappointed at what the USGA did to the golf course "
Jeff Maggert

"It's borderline fair," said Els. "That's as tough as the US Open gets, right there. The greens were incredibly tough to play on."

Spain's Sergio Garcia added: "It's right on the limit. If it blows and the pins are tough we'll still be putting on Sunday night."

American Jeff Maggert, who slumped to a four-over 74 for one under overall, said: "You are kind of at the mercy of the bounce.

"I am a little disappointed at what the USGA did to the golf course. It takes a little bit of the skill out of what we are trying to do."

But Masters champion Phil Mickelson insisted he was relishing the testing conditions as he went in search of a second major title.

"I'm really enjoying this. I'm enjoying the set-up. I think the short game is going to play a huge factor in tomorrow's winner," he said.

"What we will have is guys outlasting each other, who can make the most pars before somebody bogeys. That's a fun way to play."

[Steve Lapper]

I disagree with those who have hinted that the course is one-dimensional.

I'd agree with you.
And, for those who think the land is uninteresting, I'd disagree, there's plenty of movement, especially on the back nine.[/color]

The greens are so tough that they make every other aspect of the game important, too.  If you don't drive it in the fairways, if you don't play good iron shots, if you aren't a magician around the greens, you'll pay for it because of the greens.  It is a championship test.

And yet, on that score, I find it a bit lacking because it is ONLY a championship test.  

This is where I disagree with you.
If you play the golf course from tees other then the tips, the course is quite interesting, and fun.

From the tips, it's a bear, a true championship golf course.
But, I can assure you that member play is from other sets of tees.  And, that from those tees, depending upon your ability, the course will provide interest, challenge and fun.[/color]

There are A LOT of other courses which would score higher on the "fun to play" meter -- including most of the other Open venues mentioned above.  They simply have more variety to them, partly because of the terrain, but partly because of design variety, too.  

WFW requires moving your ball off the tee, left to right and right to left.  There is a requirement for variety.[/color]

At Winged Foot West, every green except the 18th is roughly the same size and shape and bunkered on both sides.
In general, perhaps,  but # 6 certainly doesn't bear any resemblance to any other greens, and most of the greens are angled as the golfer approaches them.

One of WFW's strengths is the difficulty in recovery from the wrong side.[/color]

Steve Lapper,

If the hole on # 6 is to the right, behind the bunker, I wouldn't be surprised if many play a tee shot that rolls the drive into the bunker.

I think I'd prefer to play a bunker shot from the front bunker then a wedge approach from 40-100 yards out.

If the hole is in the front leg, I think they'll try to roll it on the green or lay back 40 yards.

It should be interesting to watch.

I think hole # 15 will hold up well.
I'll include # 10 and # 8.

Patrick,

While I handily see the merit of your strategies, I highly doubt the pros will try anything like what you suggest.

1) With a back right pin, the front bunker is 300+ yard tee shot that must find a narrow bunker that will be fronted by 4-6inch rough...not a high degree of probability shot! (only a slightly cut 290yd shot will be so lucky as to "roll" into that bunker). The pros can control a little wedge from the fairway to find the center left (widest) part of the green to give themselves a putt.

2) A few may try to roll a tee shot on, but the penalty for coming into that green from the rough might be the most severe of all approaches attempted out there.

Remember that Hogan & Casper laid up with 4 irons in 1959 and Irwin did the same in 1974....all so they would have full wedges in their hands. The hole is unforgiving and not one to get agressive with unless forced by score to do so (rarely the case so early in the routing).

I know we amateurs get carried away, but the pros are theoretically smarter and safer.....

I do agree with you on #'s 10 and 8, but beg to differ on #15. My guess is that with the stretch of 16-18 coming up, that will be an exciting hole to watch the agressive nature of those chasing a leader.There, I think that due to the lack of distance on the hole, many pros will try to blow it over the creek to wedge-land, or lay back and have 7-8 irons in their hands. It is the perfect time for them to try to get agressive as the green allows for a controlled spinning wedge to leave a possible uphill chance.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris K / Jim N:

You are 100% correct -- the debacle started on Saturday. It only accelerated to its ultimate failure on Sunday.

Let me point out that the key folks with the USGA have some of the best weather resources at their disposal. Pushing the course right to the limit is one thing -- they simply opted to keep the water to a minimum and kept their fingers crossed everything would turn out fine. It was a mistake and one USGA officials, from the ones that addressed the media audience this past Monday with the media event at Winged Foot, have recognized. No less than USGA Prez Walt Driver admitted that the USGA understanding of course preparations / weather realities need to be paid a high amount of attention when using coastal sites like Pebble Beach and Shinnecock.

Jim -- you are spot on with your quotes. Ernie Els, a two-time champ pointed it out quite correctly and I can remember how Tom Meeks layed at his feet the thought that Ernie had simply given up when Sunday's play commenced.

The reality is that the buck stops with someone. When Pat says Mother Nature trumps anything that can happen that is an argument that simply deflects any responsibility from those running the event. Given that thinking then Tom Meeks would not have been reponsible for the back pin placement on the 18th green at Olympic in '98 or the sheer lunacy with how the final green at Southern Hills was prepared for the first two rounds of the US Open in '01. One simply says it's Mother Nature or gravity or whatever else can be offered from the apologist camp.

The debacle at the 7th hole took away from what such a classic course is all about. It was truly unncessary and could have been avoided with a bit more forethought.

To think that the USGA has no hand in what turf conditions are produced at the Open Championship is amnesia of the highest kind. It is their championship -- they are the strewards of what takes place. They are clearly involved and an appropriate level of responsibility clearly lays at their feet.

Winged Foot / West clearly has the potential to be a superlative event. I would simply hope that the contrivances of the past are clearly in the memory banks so that we can have an event in which skill -- not luck -- is always at the front of what takes place.

[Anthony Butler]

Ernie Els, a two-time champ pointed it out quite correctly and I can remember how Tom Meeks layed at his feet the thought that Ernie had simply given up when Sunday's play commenced.

The reality is that the buck stops with someone. When Pat says Mother Nature trumps anything that can happen that is an argument that simply deflects any responsibility from those running the event.
Winged Foot / West clearly has the potential to be a superlative event. I would simply hope that the contrivances of the past are clearly in the memory banks so that we can have an event in which skill -- not luck -- is always at the front of what takes place.

Apologists for the USGA and other powers that be in our society have always fascinated me. I can understand Tom Meeks or someone other functionary (Scott McLelland) defending their group or organization. No matter how indefensible those decisions or actions might be, your job is to explain them, rationalize them... to limit the damage to your organization. Where the USGA screwed up was in by allowing the architect of the policy to also be the spokesman for it.

Meeks turns a green into something that should feature a clown's mouth or a windmill and people continue to post on this and other golf sites for almost two years that he was just simply executing the policies of the organization to "identify' the best golfer that year. And therefore any actions taken are justified because that is the goal.

Perhaps an extreme example but it gets the point across: If the "only doing my job" argument had any legal validity the Nuremburg trials would have been a bust!

Meeks is lucky he didn't make the comment on 'giving up' about Steve Elkington, Pat Perez or any other PGA player whose engine runs a little hotter than Ernie Els. He would have gotten a punch in the mouth for his troubles...

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Playing conditions at Shinnecock turned ugly on Saturday.

Could you cite exactly how they turned ugly ?
And what does ugly mean ?[/color]

The USGA admitted afterwards they made a mistake in rolling the 7th green before that round.

Which USGA official admitted that ?  [/color]

Here is a BBC article about this that quotes tournament officials and players:

"US Open officials have admitted the treacherous short seventh was becoming unplayable and will sprinkle the green with water between each group.

The USGA typically syringes greens during Championships.
Why was syringing the 7th green out of sync with their normal policy ?[/color]

Sun and a stiffening breeze made the greens slick on Saturday, and the par three had become a lottery with drives and putts racing off the green.

The USGA admitted it had made a mistake in rolling the green before the play.

Who admitted that ?[/color]

And early in the fourth round they conceded defeat and authorised a light watering to make the hole fairer.

That's not true.
The USGA has syringed greens during competitions for years.
And, it has more to do with preventing the loss of the green then it does the play of the green.[/color]

Only one birdie was achieved on the seventh in the third round, and of the last 22 players in the field just three were on the green after their tee shots.

One of those was co-leader Shigeki Maruyama, who then putted off the green.

Despite measures designed to address the problem, the antics continued early in Sunday's final round.

American Kevin Stadler missed a two-foot par putt which rolled 60ft off the green. He and playing partner JJ Henry both took triple-bogey sixes, as did Cliff Kresge behind them.

After Billy Mayfair received a huge roar for a bogey, it was decided that play should be halted for 20 minutes and greenkeeping staff called to water the putting surface.

Walter Driver, the chairman of the championship committee, admitted that officials had been wrong to roll the green before Saturday's third round.
[size=4x]
"The change in the wind had a great deal to do with it," said Driver.[/size]

I believe I stated that[/color]

"The green is very firm and [size=4x]we had given instruction to stop rolling the green as of Tuesday and I found out today, after the round, that for some reason, a different person on the greens staff had rolled the green this morning despite the orders we had given."[/size]

Please reread the above paragraph that you cited
[/color]

First-round co-leader Jay Haas said on Saturday: "That hole is in the top 10 of all-time difficult ones, and that's out of a lot holes."

England's Lee Westwood added: "If it's an exam paper they're asking you a question that there's no answer to.

"It's playing downwind and the flag's cut on a downslope."

Two-time US Open winner Ernie Els said the Shinnecock Hills course was "as hard as it gets" in the third round.

" I am a little disappointed at what the USGA did to the golf course "
Jeff Maggert

"It's borderline fair," said Els. "That's as tough as the US Open gets, right there. The greens were incredibly tough to play on."

Spain's Sergio Garcia added: "It's right on the limit. If it blows and the pins are tough we'll still be putting on Sunday night."

American Jeff Maggert, who slumped to a four-over 74 for one under overall, said: "You are kind of at the mercy of the bounce.

"I am a little disappointed at what the USGA did to the golf course. It takes a little bit of the skill out of what we are trying to do."

But Masters champion Phil Mickelson insisted he was relishing the testing conditions as he went in search of a second major title.

"I'm really enjoying this. I'm enjoying the set-up. I think the short game is going to play a huge factor in tomorrow's winner," he said.

"What we will have is guys outlasting each other, who can make the most pars before somebody bogeys. That's a fun way to play."

Years ago Frank Hannigan told me that the last people to listen to were the players.  I think that's sage advice.
[/color]

Steve Lapper,

Are you sure that they're putting a meaningful buffer of rough between the fairway and the bunker on # 6 ?

Do you really believe that, with out-of-bounds left, the creek and the slope of the land in front and in back of it, with woods right, that the Pros will attempt to carry that creek in a medal play competition ?

If they do, it will be incredible and a further signal that the ball is going to far.

[/b]

[Craig Sweet]

Tournament officials and golf course superintendents have to pay attention to the weather. They have at their disposal the means to mitigate everything but the most extreme change in weather.

At the Shinny, they either ignored the weather or ignored those who counciled doing something about it....

To say they were helpless to modify course conditions when the "wind" began to blow is just plain wrong.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tournament officials and golf course superintendents have to pay attention to the weather. They have at their disposal the means to mitigate everything but the most extreme change in weather.

At the Shinny, they either ignored the weather or ignored those who counciled doing something about it....

To say they were helpless to modify course conditions when the "wind" began to blow is just plain wrong.

Tell us how they would do that and still maintain challenging championship conditions.[/color]

[Steve Lapper]

Pat,

   I'm sure of one thing: Neil Regan likely knows for sure. That said, I fairly confident that the left corner of the right greenside trap will have fairway frontage, but that the bulk of the trap's width will be behind rough (the fairway naturally pinches off there). If it's all fairway then your strategic aim will most probably prevail...if rough, then the fun begins .

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Steve Lapper,

If the PGA tour pros are going to lay up on # 6 as you suggest, why would they risk trying to carry the creek on
# 15, with OB left and woods right ?

[Craig Sweet]

Pat, I'm not going to tell you how they would do that because you are not really interested in that.

But I will tell you they knew darn well, several years out, the potential for warm windy conditions  and they could have left more margin for those conditions without lessening the challenge.

It appears, from the reports that came out at that time,that they did curtail rolling the greens, though I'm not sure NOT rolling will enhance the plant's capacity to maintain moisture and continue to grow.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Pat, I'm not going to tell you how they would do that because you are not really interested in that.

I am

But I will tell you they knew darn well, several years out, the potential for warm windy conditions  and they could have left more margin for those conditions without lessening the challenge.

How ?

It appears, from the reports that came out at that time,that they did curtail rolling the greens, though I'm not sure NOT rolling will enhance the plant's capacity to maintain moisture and continue to grow.

Typically, a course is preped to peak saturday and sunday.
However, competitive conditions must be in effect on thursday and friday.

I never heard ONE complaint about the golf course on thursday or friday.

The subsequent complaints seemed to focus solely on the 7th green, with some minor complaints elsewhere.

So, how was the rest of the golf course not properly prepared ?

[Steve Lapper]

Pat,

     Out of bounds left will not come into play for those with a straight or power fade shot...and neither will the trees. Both of those hazards are more prominent for shorter hitters. The chief reason I would venture to see this shot taken is that #15 will be the LAST BIRDIE HOLE left in the final home stretch, thus the chance.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

If the choice is between presenting less of a challenge for the US Open or pushing the greens beyond reason what would you think should be the wise choice?  

Sean, what greens were pushed beyond reason ?
One green, # 7.
What other greens were pushed beyond reason ?

And, how were they pushed ?

How were they on thursday, friday and saturday ?[/color]

Seems to me either the USGA was over zealous in their setup or not very conscientious in supervising.

How were they over zealous in their setup ?
Be specific, not vague.

Or, how were they not conscientious in supervising ?  

Are you familiar with the chain of command, and the specifics of what occured saturday and sunday ?

All of you BOZO's keep hanging your hat on one hole in a 72 hole tournament, and ignoring the impact of the winds on saturday, saturday evening and sunday morning.

Have any of you been involved in preparing a golf course for four days of tournament play ?
[/color]

[Craig Sweet]

From my experience, if a hole, such as #7 dried out during the tournament, it probably dries out quicker than the other holes all season long, and especially when set up for tournament play.

If that is the case, and I bet it is,why not take that into consideration in the months leading up to the Open?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

From my experience, if a hole, such as #7 dried out during the tournament, it probably dries out quicker than the other holes all season long, and especially when set up for tournament play.

I would imagine that the elevated greens, the greens most exposed to the winds would dry out first.
But, that might depend upon the direction of the wind.
A prevailing wind is from the southeast, off the ocean.
I'd imagine that that wind carries more moisture then winds from the west and north.  If winds shift, they may become the primary catalyst in drying out the greens.[/color]

If that is the case, and I bet it is,why not take that into consideration in the months leading up to the Open?

They do.

April and May are wet and cold.

During a Travis at GCGC, held just a few miles down I-495, held in the latter part of May, it was 38 and raining.

A competitor wanted to concede and return to the clubhouse because it was so raw and wet.

The U.S. Open is held only 3-4 weeks later[/color]

[David Ober]

Patrick,

You said earlier that the "The USGA has syringed greens during competitions for years."

Are you sure about this? If so, it's a HORRIBLE policy to syringe a green AFTER anyone has played the green in its "non-syringed" state, which is what happend on #7 at Shinnecock.

Syringing routinely occurs BETWEEN rounds to save greens, but I doubt very seriously that it happens DURING rounds when some have played the hole and some have not.

If it does, the practice should stop, because it gives a HUGE advantage to players playing the hole AFTER syringing has occured.

Are you sure you have your facts straight on this?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick

People on this thread have been very specific.  The 7th went beyond reason.  You choose to blame unforseeable weather as the reason.  

Myself and others have suggested the USGA could have eased up on the firmness of the greens from day 1 and avoided this specific problem while still presenting a stiff challenge for the tournament.  

Why ?  There was NO problem on days 1 & 2.
Everything was going well with SOP.
Prep was no different than any other Open.

But, now you, with 20-20 hindsight, can predict the coming weather pattern.[/color]

Your point of view seems to be that getting one hole wrong on one day is a job well done.  

No, that's not my point.
My point is that you're taking one hole and applying its condition as a universal condition for all of the other holes, and nothing could be further from the truth.[/color]

Given the importance of the tournament and the amount of successful experience in setting up courses the USGA has, I would say the USGA did not earn high marks.  

On what basis ?   One hole ?
With unusual climatic conditions.
Or, are you saying that a golf course should be PERFECTLY prepared irrespective of the weather leading up to and during the competition ?

If that's the case you appear to be advocating Augusta like preparation and maintainance.  Is that what you want ?[/color]

What the exact breakdown in the USGA system was - I don't know and it doesn't really matter.

Why do insist that the breakdown was within the USGA system and not weather related ?[/color]  

Your penchant for school boy tantrums and arguing with no apparent desire to come to a conclusion doesn't entice me toward continuing the conversation.  I reckon we will have to agree to disagree, but then you would probably have something to write about that as well.

My penchant is to challenge uninformed, inexperienced BOZOS
who make irresponsible general pronouncements absent specific facts, who then run and hide when questioned on their views

I presented a conclusion, you just chose to ignore it.

That you can't withstand the scrutiny and defend your statements by providing a reasoned, fact based presentation is your shortcoming, not mine.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

David Ober,

I'm not sure on my facts about syringing, I"m positive about them.

One of the reasons that the USGA and PGA avoided competitions in the deep south in the heart of the season, summer, is the weather and the ability to maintain competitive conditions.

Ask yourself this question.

If, during the second day of a four day competition, one green was begining to fail.

Should the USGA syringe that green or let it fail, effectively taking it out of play for the remaining two days ?

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, how many times during U.S. Open championships has the USGA syringed greens during play?  Please give me a precise answer, including when and where this syringing took place.    

[ed_getka]

Jim,
  You do realize there won't be an answer forthcoming. Patrick asks the questions, we answer them.

[Jeff Goldman]

I for one actually thought the last two days at Shinnecock were great fun, giving the players a real mental challenge.  The only issue would be if (and I say if) certain holes, there probably 7 and 10, could not be played with any sort of intelligent shot.  A score dependant on pure luck, with no allowance for skill, isn't a good way to identify a champion.

My recollection is also that on days 1 and 2 scores were very, very low.  Therefore, if, as Pat says, "there was NO problem on days 1 and 2.  Everything was going well on SOP," then it appears that the USGA was willing to accept such low scores, which has been a bone of contention.  Absent what happened, it seems unlikely that scores would have gotten any higher.

[Matt_Ward]

I would hope people who want to talk about the causes and effects of what took place at the '04 US Open at Shinnecock can start their own thread with that in mind.

If memory serves -- there was a thread not very long ago that detailed concerns about the hijacking of threads into different tangents that stray beyond the original point.

Winged Foot / West is what this thread is about and it seems from all the people I intereviewed at the media event that lessons have been learned and that every intent will be put forward in making the '06 event a memorable one.

No doubt there will be some unique aspects for this year's event -- the scaling of rough to certain holes and shots played is a new item. Ditto the desire to keep the challenge of the course on a even keel basis for the 72 holes.

From what I have seen of the preparation and what the course clearly presents it appears we are in store for a grand event come mid-June.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick, how many times during U.S. Open championships has the USGA syringed greens during play?  Please give me a precise answer, including when and where this syringing took place.    

Jim Nugent,

In what context would you evaluate my answer ?

Does it matter if it's been 5-10-20 or more times in the last twenty years ?

Does it matter which greens were syringed ?

Does it matter for how long they were syringed ?

Suffice it to say that 2004 wasn't the first time that the USGA syringed greens DURING a competition.

Now, if you'd like to challenge that statement, I'd be willing to wager whatever sum you choose.

We can mail certified checks made payable to each other, to Ran, who will hold them and release them to the winning party.  You pick the amount.

P.S.  Feel free to syndicate your side of the bet.[/color]