[Matt_Ward]

Had the opportunity to attend the USGA Media day event showcasing this year's venue -- the West Course at Winged Foot.

Time doesn't allow for a thorough analysis of what has been done to the course for the event -- but I have to say the layout looked indeed impressive and the green sites are simply among the finest I have ever played.

I concur with Mike Davis of the USGA prep staff when he mentioned with the exception of Oakmont -- the totality of the challenge presented at the West Course at Winged Foot is very hard to match -- let alone surpass.

Like I said I'll post more when time permits. I simply believe that with the exception of Oakmont and Merion -- the 36 holes you find at Winged Foot is among the very best parksland layout you will find in the States.

[Jim Nugent]

Looking forward to your reports.  Any early thoughts on who the course you saw might favor?  

[PThomas]

I simply believe that with the exception of Oakmont and Merion -- the 36 holes you find at Winged Foot is among the very best parksland layout you will find in the States.

since Oakmont has been de-treed, can we still consider it a parkland layout?

[JESII]

Matt,

Does the USGA ever discuss the televised appearance of their Open courses at these functions? All of the USGA people I have known seem to appreciate and understand the potential merits of a course that appears a bit brown, although they never seem to prepare an Open venue in that manner. Any insight?

[tlavin]

Matt,

Thanks for the post.  For one, I am very excited about the Open going back to Winged Foot.  I looked at the open website and the course layout looks like a true classic.  With the right weather conditions, Winged Foot has all the makings of a terrific site for a modern major championship.

From the limited photographs on the website, it looks like the club removed a lot of trees from around the greens.  Any comment?

[Jay Flemma]

Great stuff matt.  I have to preview the tourney fpr cybergolf and am looking forward to comparing notes with you.  I'm also curious if you agree that a) the best putter and b) the most solid all around player interms of keeping it STRAIGHT are the faves.  If sergio ever gets his putter going, maybe a chance?  Maybe Ernie if his knee heals?  Will the fairways be so tight, Tiger will have to club down?  How high will the rought be and how wide are the fwys?

[Matt_Ward]

A couple of key points to kick-off the discussion.

The primary rough is still growing in key spots throughout the course. The spring in the Northeast has been a start / stop affair but warmer weather is on the horizon and with ample fertilizer I'm sure it will be ready come mid-June.

Winged Foot / West previously played just under 7,000 yards for the more recent majors -- the '97 PGA and '84 US Open come to mind right away. This time around -- at the behest of the club and through the recommendations primarily of architect Tom Fazio a number of key holes have been considerably strengthened -- some of which are better for it and others much less so.

The thing that has alway struck me about Winged Foot / West is that the actual land the courser occupies is quite tame when compared to other more rolling layouts -- most notably Augusta. I frankly believe the land Westchester CC has is better in terms of the variation and grades encountered.

What the West does have is some of the most unique and punishing green contours you can encounter anywhere. Tillie favored pear-shaped greens that slide often from back to front. Within that general frame he also included various ribs and other break points between section.

On top of that you also have greens that are quite small. They are not as small as the ones at Pebble but they aren't much bigger when you consider the lies you face and the pitch and angle you face with your approaches.

The West is not a super demanding drive test from the tee. But, you can't get sloppy with your tee game because the second shot requirements -- most notably on the par-4's -- is simply first rate from all the major championship courses that I have personally encountered.

There is NEVER -- repeat after me -- NEVER -- an easy recovery if you miss greens at the West Course. If you happen to short side yourself then you have an all-star tandem of Seve, Julius Boros and Tiger and they would be hard pressed to do better than save themselves more than 50% of the time.

To the credit of the club the desire to bag the evergreens -- most notably on the 1st and 9th holes -- is a huge, huge plus. The problem with the way the course played previously was that the trees simply made a tough but fair course play as an impossible one. Often times the evergreens were never cut high enough from the ground to allow a player to play some sort of recovery. That's been changed and it's a big plus for the extra air movement and light one has now.

Again -- time call me away -- but the actual course for the event will be par-70, as previously played, but the total length will be just over 7,200 yards.

Among the key holes changed for yardage from the past ...

*2nd (previously 411 now to a max of 460)

*3rd (still at 216 but can be stretched to a max of 250) -- in fact the Open will use the extreme rear tee for at least one round.

Before going forward I believe one can easily make the case that the first four holes at the West may be the most demanding and difficult for any major we have in the States. I can recall a Digest article from June '74 which talked about their qualities. The 1st is a grand starter -- I can remember Nicklaus hitting the green in round one in '74 and being 28 feet away -- the next putt was a come back attempt from 30 feet or so !!!!!

*8th (previously 444 now stretched to 485 yards) Puts max pressure for the player to work the ball from left-to-right. In years past strong players could club down and hit 3-metal or equivalent and still have no more than mid-iron. That's not likely the case with the exception of Tiger and the other big hitters. Nonetheless, you have to hit the fairway and hugging the right side is problematic if not executed with high precision.

*12th (previously 550 yards now to a max of 650 yards) Don't know if I like this change. The added length is simply an addition of yards but little else in terms of strategy. The 17th at Baltusrol Lower is much better for a long par-5 type hole. The USGA has said no less than one round will be played at the other tee box -- 560 yards -- and that makes for much more interesting possibilities. One other thing -- first rate green like so many others at the West.

*14th (previously 415 yards now can go back to 460 yards) Used to be one of the easier holes on the closing stretch. I like the added yardage because it makes you think about hitting driver for the top players. You can slide a draw and gain considerable advantage on this turning hole. The green is one of my personal favorites at the West -- ditto the 15th which follows.

*16th (previously 457 yards -- now can go back to a max of 485 yards). I'm on the fence with this one. This hole has never surrendered anything when it was 457 yards. The added length means driver for just about anyone in the field. The green has been added onto a bit but it's still designed for the shorter club as the hole generally is a par-5 for the members. If the pin is cut tight to the front you will need a herculean effort to get within 15 feet.

In sum for now -- the first four and the last four at Winged Foot will not yield many birdies -- you can lose it completely at the start and never recover.

There's more from my day there in discussions with various people. Will post later this afternoon.

[Matthew Schulte]

I know they are going to experiment with three cuts of rough for this open.  The theory being the further one hits it off line the more penal the rough will be.  As such they are also supposedly moving the galleries further from fairway than normal to minimize the chances of hitting it so wayward that you get rewarded with the trampled down lie.

In theory it makes sense to me.

[Matt_Ward]

What often amazes me about Winged Foot is this seldom mentioned fact -- Greg Norman and Fuzzy Zoellar broke par for 72 holes when they tied in 1984 at 276. Previously, no one had for 72 holes on the West Course for any other major event played there.

Fast forward 13 years later and I am still amazed at how David Love III -- one of the great under achievers in his golf generation -- played flawless golf in not only breaking 280 for four rounds -- he went one step further -- breaking 270 for a 269 total. Incredible stuff.

I can remember when people were in near hysteria over the four round record that Tiger shot at Augusta that same year. The feat by Love IMHO is even better given the overall tencacity of the West versus Augusta. I know people will say that since the PGA set-up the course the feat by Love is not that impressive. I would simply counter that by saying that the course the pros encountered in '97 was anything but a pushover.

*****

The item that really amazes me about the West is that generally speaking it is the importance of land that often gets first billing when discussing the great courses. I have to candidly admit that I would place land as the first among equals when I assess layouts. In my mind, the quality of the land would account for no less than 60% IMHO.

Winged Foot / West is, as I mentioned previously, far from being a stellar example of quality land. In fact, it succeeds tremendously inspite of what is there. You can see better pieces of land with neighboring layouts like Westchester CC and Fenway -- even nearby Bonnie Briar sits on some unique rolling land.

To Tillie's considerable credit he imbued all the elements of detail -- especially on the approaches and putting surfaces -- in order to bring out the qualities you see today. Take for example the position of the putting surfaces. A number of them are set upon natural rock outcroppings given the nature of stone and rock that cuts through a number of other Westchester County layouts.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the game's best handle the 21st century version of Winged Foot / West. Indeed, it is no doubt the man sized course that was sought by the membership way back when in the 1920's.

[JESII]

Matt,

I'm with you in regards to what Tillinghast created on a pretty bland site. The people that play there and come away underwhelmed really surprise me. I guess it could be that I put alot more stock in green complexes than some, and the green complexes at the West Course (I've not played the East) are out of this world.

Any thoughts about the USGA prep program? Has "brown is good" entered their game plan yet? I know they try for firm, but they have not yet accepted brownness as an acceptable side-effect.

[Matt_Ward]

JES II:

The USGA will attempt to get the proper balance of firm and fast. Walt Driver even alluded to the fact that having the Open away from coastal areas (e.g. Shinnecock & Pebble) allow for a better sense of weather conditions and planning acccordingly in terms of hole locations, tee lengths, etc, etc.

The issue for Winged Foot / West is that if the layout gets toooooo dry and tooooo fast then you won't see many rounds below par. The demands of the approaches are very severe, as you well know, and if they should be very firm to the point of balls bouncing andnot sticking from the fairway then it might result in a mass riot among the players that nothing was learned from the mess created with the 7th at Shinnecock.

[Matt_Ward]

JES II:

I forgot to mention one thing -- you are 100000% correct when you say people who go to Winged Foot may come away underwhelmed. It doesn't have any major water hazard -- in fact -- the only one of consequence comes at the downhill 15th. The land is, as you said, basically nondescript.

What often is missed by many people is that missing by as little one or two feet can result in massive changes in terms of whether you can chip or pitch the ball. You also have to deal with greens that fall away in a myriad of ways.

The USGA did mention that sand in the bunkers will not be compacted to the degree you see with the PGA Tour. The theory is that being a bunker should not be seen as "get out of jail card" when compared to the rough.

Frankly, the West Course doesn't need major amount of rough because as long as the course plays relatively fast and the greens firm up it will be enough of a chore to get somewhere close. Any smart player would be best advised to hit for the center of the greens and proceed from there.

Those attempting to flag their ball no matter where the pin is will more than likely be heading down the Hutchinson Parkway back to LaGuardia and home for the weekend.

[Glenn Spencer]

Personally, outside of Bethpage, this is my most anticipated Open in some time. All of the Eastern courses are great but this is one of my favorites. I thought Love's performance was masterful and I have referred to it as such on this site previously.

Matt,

Was No. 8 the hole that played at 509 for the Am? Is 10 going to play at 190 as always? I wonder if this is long enough? I can't remember where Ryan Moore and the boys played it from, please refresh my memory if they played it longer, I thought they might have.

p.s.- what does a water hazard have to do with one's appreciation of a championship golf course?

[JESII]

One good thing about Winged Foot (as you've mentioned through this thread) is that it can almost never play easy. Even when Love shot 11 under he won by about 7 shots, and the course was soft for them most of the week if I remember correctly.

I do think it's a shame though that the mistakes at Shinnecock might make them a bit gunshy going forward. When I hear "The USGA will attempt to get the proper balance of firm and fast", I can't help but assume they will err on the side of soft. Proper brown fairways are often the best playing surfaces you can find for challenge as well as playability and I wish they could committ to striving for that.

[Glenn Spencer]

I am with that JES, I thought Olympia Fields first 36 were more of a calamity than the final 18 at Shinnecock!!

[JESII]

Glenn,

Not intending to cut off Matt, but #9 was the 509 par 4. It plays slightly (very slightly) downhill, and has a wide open approach from about 30-40 yards short so it works if you ask me. #10 does not really stretch any longer than about 190, and that too is plenty for that green. The US Am guys played it from just about there as well.

[Phil Benedict]

There are a number of common sites for the Open and PGA (Winged Foot, Medinah, Inverness, Baltusrol etc.)  On television the set ups look pretty similar, particularly the rough.  What's the big difference between the way the PGA of America and USGA set up a championship site?  Isn't it partly a matter of timing, August being wetter than June?

I know the players trust the PGA of America more than the USGA, which is prone to go over the top to protect par.

[Glenn Spencer]

JES,

Thanks for that. Will 10 be sacrificed at all if Goosen and Els and the like  are hitting 7, wasn't is meant for a longer iron? It appears that you don't think so, I am a bit concerned about it.

[Matt_Ward]

I have to say the 9th is one of the most boring holes at the West. The green is quite good but the fairway is predictably straight and the cuts are just nondescript with no cutting in an cutting out in places.

The one saving grace with the 9th is the elimination of the inane evergreens that dominated the hole and that includes the 1st.

JES II:

The USGA tends to work in mysterious ways. Clearly, they have learned "something" from the fiasco at Shinnecock. One of the things mentioned was the desire to move tee boxes and not be so rigid to have them placed permanently in one spot as one saw with the stupid decision by Meeks and Company with the 10th and 12th holes at Bethpage Black.

Weather will clearly determine the outcome. I don't want the course to play like a brickyard because then you get an over dependency on putting and get the same BS we all saw with Carnoustie.

Let Winged Foot / West play as it is and the champion will be someone who has clearly shown a wonderful balace between power, accuracy and touch in and around the marvelous putting surfaces.

Glenn:

The 8th played previously at 444 yards and was strong. The new extension to a max of 485 yards will make this one of the best holes on the course.

What a lot of people don't seem to notice about the West Course is that you have to s-l-i-d-e the tee shot one way or other on a number of the tougher par-4's. The 9th is deadly dull off the tee but that's not the case with the 1st which favors a slight draw -- ditto the 4th. The 8th bends a good ways to the right. In fact, the finishing three holes vary with the 16th calling for a slight draw, the 17th a fade and the 18th a return to the draw.

You asked about the 10th -- the hole will play at its traditional length of 190 yards. Frankly, I would like to see them place the pin way up front and have the hole played at 170 yards or thereabouts. The landing area in front is the size of a Manhattan studio apartment.

Regarding water hazards -- too many people seem to believe that the addition of water is central to a first rate design. I don't believe that and in fact Winged Foot / West accomplishes so much without water and without land that leaves you breathless like Pebble or as grand in dimension as Bethpage Black. If someone walks Winged Foot / West and doesn't see the details that are present it's time to have them take some design 101 classes.

One other thing -- part of the issue for Winged Foot / West getting so little fanfare is that too many people doing the assessment don't take kindly to getting their ass kicked in time after time when playing there.

Many will opt for Fenway because it's a junior version of what you see with Winged Foot / West. I'm looking forward to seeing how Tiger handles this time around. In '97 he was only at the very beginning of his career -- now he's prime time. Ditto Phil, Retief, Els and Singh.

[JESII]

JES,

Thanks for that. Will 10 be sacrificed at all if Goosen and Els and the like  are hitting 7, wasn't is meant for a longer iron? It appears that you don't think so, I am a bit concerned about it.

Glenn,

I think you're right that the hole was intended to be approached by longer irons than will be played this summer, but the increased green speed (and fairway speed for that matter) make the green end challenge substantially greater. Therefore the demand goes back to a properly played mid-iron with little room for error because of the severity of the green.

[JESII]

Matt,

I can't disagree about #9, although I think for these guys it suit's better as a two shotter than a three shotter, agree?

[George Pazin]

I'd be surprised if the USGA erred too much on the side of caution, with regard to firm and fast. #2 was pretty firm and fast last year, and it may or may not be well known, but they were having some serious problems shortly before the Open. I haven't seen the USGA opt at all for TV green. If you watch the old broadcasts, US Open courses are routinely brown and baked out.

Is Winged Foot one of the only 36 hole complexes that does not ever use a composite course for major tournaments? I guess Olympic has 18 as well, yet they only use one for the Open. A true testament to the strength of each.

[Matt_Ward]

JES II:

The one main argument you can make about Winged Foot / West, unlike other Tille gems, is the absence of any real solid par-5's.

As you know -- the 9th and 16th are converted short par-5's into long par-4's. The 5th at the West is a dog-leg left hole that is meant to surrender a ton of birdies after guys have puked all over themselves through the first four holes. I don't see any architectural elements of greatness with that hole when compared to what Tillie has done with other gem par-5's he has created -- e.g., 4th at Bethpage Black or the 3rd on the East Course at Ridgewood CC, to name just two.

The strength of the West is tied directly to the 12 par-4's you play. Any player able to keep his score near level par for the balance of the week on all the par-4's will likely bring home the trophy.

The 9th is a default par-4 because if push came to shoove there is room behind the existing tee -- which caps out now to 530 yards -- adding a bit more distance could be done but it would still be a yawn type hole sandwiched between the incredible 8th and 10th holes. Frankly, the 9th as a par-4 is simply about length for the sake of length. The green is a gem but the rest is nothing more than pedestrian.

Like I said before -- the first four holes are absolutely ball busters. I can envision guys starting the round and when they reach the 5th tee being 3 to 4 over par without breaking a sweat.

The 1st is vastly underrated as a starting hole. It may not have the pizzaz of the 1st PV or closer to home say the 1st at Plainfield but the totality of what you need to do -- right from the get-go -- makes you really understand the character of the course.

What really strikes me about the greens at the West is that they are not blatabtly over-the-top so that they resemble the clowns mouth when playing putt-putt.

The USGA said they will not go beyond 12 for the greens given their contour and fall-offs. I would only hope the USGA allows two things to happen -- don't make Winged Foot a contrivance as Shinnecock was and above all else allow the players to showcase their games without making some sort of defensive struggle that puts most people to sleep.

Glenn:

The idea that guys will be routinely hitting 7-irons into the 10th is more myth than reality. The likely club will be between 5 and 6 irons. The very strongest can get a 7-iron there but is the risk of muscle-ing the ball to that unique putting surface worth it ?

George:

Baltusrol is another 36-hole layout that doesn't use a composite design. The only layout I know that has had both courses host a US Open -- on the men's and ladie's sides.

[Steve Lapper]

Matt,

  Bravo!

For the record, I don't always agree with Matt but in this case he's clearly outdone himself(shhhhhh...don't tell anyone! ). I grew up less than 2 miles from "The Foot" and caddied there as a kid, know it intimately and still couldn't describe it as well as has been done here.

 Matt's descriptions of the holes, their lines and defenses is 100% spot on! The work of Tillie's hand has never been stronger in defending par at the green. Shortsiding is a receipe for disaster.....and was quite the undoing of many at the 2004 Amateur. The "sliding" of the tee shots will ask every pro to make and commit to a shot shape decision or face severe consequences. The USGA won't have to find any "devilish" pin placements because simply putting the pins anywhere in their respective quadrants will cause plenty of consternation.

  The only addition I'd make would be to highlight the diversity of the par 3's. Outside of 10, they are often overlooked and improperly discounted. #'s 3 & 13 will give the players fits with long iron shots over +215yds to smallish and severely sloped targets. Misses mean bogey way more often than not!! Doubles will also happen here as players try to get cute with the slick Poa Annua surfaces and heavy slopes. #7 is small but short and that green is hidden(elevated) from easy view. The infamous #10 bares all of it's surface to the tee shot, yet remains so very tough to make a par...especially if the pin is anywhere hard left or right.

Lastly, I'd also mention that one of the prime viewing holes will be #6...a short 350yd four par that has an "L" shaped green that slopes away to unyieldingly sharp greenside edges that make recovery feel like a church confession (do I even know what that feels like???.....maybe the guilt part? ) Only an upfront pin will yield any easy pars or birdies.

Glenn, et.al.,

    All the past Opens (I worked at the 1974 affair as a scoring sign holder) were set up brutally tough. The PGA was a rain-soaked much easier course that had an unfamilar constant and throughly more benign rough than for an Open. Not gonna happen this year!

[Mark_F]

Does the USGA diminish the championship by playing at courses like Winged Foot, Oakmont and Pinehurst, then going to the lesser ones, i.e. Torrey Pines, Southern Hills?

Should they have a smaller roster?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()