Doak vs C&C greens...Which are more similar to the old greens of Scotland..

[John Kavanaugh]

If I was pressed I might say Doak greens appear slightly more natural when compared to the randomy nature of C&C greens...What do you think and which greens most accurately reflect the great old classic greens found outside the US of A..

Honestly, I can not think of any form of erosion that would create the random humps and bumps found on a C$C green...outside of an earthquake on a box of kitty litter that is...Doak greens seem to have more of a windswept sweep....

[rgkeller]

No doubt Doak greens are better.

What would either Coore or Crenshaw know about putting?

[ForkaB]

No doubt Doak greens are better.

What would either Coore or Crenshaw know about putting?

Tom Doak is the best reader of greens that I have ever seen.  Of course, I've not played with either Coore or Crenshaw.......

[Bill_McBride]

John, I take it by "like Scotland" that you mean strongly contoured.

There can't be many greens by ANY architect more wildly contoured than C&C's #9 at Friars Head!  

Was that knob there, or did they build it?

I've played a handful of courses by each design team, and I would be hard pressed to pick one over the other.   But they (and a few others) are head and shoulders over a lot of other modern flattish stuff.

[cary lichtenstein]

I find C & C more difficult to putt. On a 40 foot putt there might be a different break every 5 or 6 feet, so frankly other than looking at the overall break on the line, I just hit and hope.

I do better with their 10 footers and 1 or 2 breaks.

I like Doak's greens better.

I prefice all this by saying that the opinion of someone who has played their courses many times is probably more valid than mine as you start of learn the breaks.

I remember the 15th hole at Pete Dye's River Course at Blackwolf Run. Bette and I must have played that 15 to 20 times and that way a give up green. It was just so bumped up that it was impossible.

[Tom_Doak]

The answer to this question depends on what you would call a "typical" Scottish green.  As Sean says, British greens (on the whole) are flatter than American greens.  But places like St. Andrews (Old and Eden), Machrihanish, Prestwick, and Dornoch are certainly exceptions to that rule.

Bill and Ben and I are all fans of wild greens in the right circumstance, but we've each done courses with tame greens and courses with wild greens.  I remember doing a home-and-home visit with Bill and Tom Beck at Notre Dame and Lost Dunes a few years back when both were under construction -- we couldn't believe how restrained their course was, and they couldn't believe how wild our greens were.  But Friars Head has greens every bit as wild as Lost Dunes.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't know if it is just the courses I have played, but in my experience Scottish greens don't tend to be severely contoured.  There are plenty of greens that will keep your attention, but few that I know of that will send one on a roller coaster ride.

Wild greens tend to be an American thing or as many over here call it, circus golf.  

Ciao

Sean

Now I'm lost...I thought the taste for wild greens by the GCA afficiandoes was because that is how golf was meant to be...How can the links at Bandon be authentic if the greens are links American style..

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I will listen to Tom as usual.

[redanman]

Haven't you guys ever tried to suck up to anyone else but "the three"?

Tom's "average green" (if there is such a thing) is more interesting than C & C's "average green", but that's just my taste.  Someone told me that Coore said that he'd "gone beyond strategy to random" and I find that to be true. I find those greens (several and at more than one place) tedious and unnatural.  I also find them less interesting to putt, especially if playing a foursome because it takes so gosh darned long for people to decide how they want to putt while I just believe in a quick look and pulling the trigger unless it's a tone-a-mint, then i start reading from 30 yards off the green.

Kelly Blake Moran's "average green" is pretty damned good, too.

On the other hand, I've seen few truly interesting greens from Hurdzan & Fry except Shelter Harbour which has some very interesting surfaces.   Certain other architects (I'll not name three) seem to build the same greens for par 3's everywhere they build.



Which are most like Links greens?

What is a "typical links green"?  I've played a lot of flat ones and then there's North Berwick WL and The Old Course.

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:  I forgot to mention North Berwick, which is a pretty bad lapse considering I played there a week ago.  Some great greens there, and not just 15 & 16 either ... 3, 7, 9, 10, 11, and 12 also have a lot of contour.

[redanman]

Tom

yer makin' me jealous.  

July, July, July...  

I think given the size of the greens and the overall oomph of the course, NBWL is phenomenal around the greens, even without the famous r hole. It certainly is not one of the courses that defers contours to wind.

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