Golf Club Membership Question

[cary lichtenstein]

For $500,000 this guy could join a raft of clubs that are first class:

Probably at least 5 to 10 clubs e.g.,

Hidden Creek
Ballyneal
Dismal River

just to name a few

[Jay Flemma]

Yes, Liberty nat'l is asking $500,000...with the idea they'll only have 50 members.

I hear they are lowering to $400,000 for "early signups."

That's way too much for golf.

Try Pradera for only 33K!

[Chris Kane]

Try Pradera for only 33K!

Only 33k?    Thats too much for golf!

You could get into two world top-25 clubs here in Melbourne for a lot less than 33k total.

[Sean Walsh]

"Only 33k"

And we wonder why Golf is seen as elitist and is unable to make big gains in participation.

[Phil_the_Author]

I am amazed that no one has suggested that he look into a club in Ireland or Scotland. I believe there a number of great clubs that he could get into overseas for a good deal less than $500K.

Considering that travel to those locations from DC isn't that bad and is just a bit longer than a travel to the West Coast, the idea of being a member of a club across the pond might carry a great deal of business weight.

[TEPaul]

Raphael:

Take a look at reply #43. A guy I know who belongs to golf clubs all over the place joined that place recently and about a month ago he was telling me it's pretty special as a "club" although it might belong to one guy. I can't say I know where Bristol Va is but if your buddy has some guy offereing to give him half a mil to join a club and he lives in DC tell your friend to ask that guy to throw in transportation from DC to Bristol Va by helicopter.

Belay that---tell him it has to be a jet helicopter!

Belay that too--I'll even see to it that he gets right in. But for this your friend has to agree to take a quick right and pick me up in Philadelphia in his jet helicopter every time he goes from DC out to Bristol Va. Or if that's too much of a waste of time for him tell him to just send the jet helicopter up here to get me and I'll pick him up in DC on our way out to Bristol Va.

[Steve Lapper]

Rapheal,

None have mentioned what just might be your best option:

Caves Valley: great experience, close proximity, competitive affinity, can be used for business hosting and relatively reasonable.

Before you go off and listen to all these other GCA recommendations, be sure to realize your fellow's chances of getting into even the Friars Head's and Sebonack's are nil and unlikely. Neither place "just accepts a check," instead both owners are stringently seeking members who fit the profile of their personal goal of a "great" club. Frankly, it's rare in today's "uber-club" world that the likes of Ken Bakst and Mike Pascucci have the wisdom and vision to avoid such compromise. Both will probably end up mirroring the very real desirability and exclusity of those places like Shinnecock, Winged Foot, NGLA, etc...

Places like Liberty National;The Bridge (Cary: $500k for this POS); Trump (any one of them); Hudson National; Bull's Bay: Hamilton Farm, etc will accept your check and convey membership immediately. All of this and you can have some "Press-tige" to boot!

A wiser strategy would be to pick a handful of "destination" clubs for less $$ (i.e BallyNeal, Dismal River, Secession, Hidden Creek, Stone Eagle, Chechessee Creek) and creat a package of great experiences.

Also, forget about Yeamans Hall...they have no interest in members who haven't got the social chops to blend right in.

Good Luck!

[Lawrence Largent]

In reply to the Olde Farm in Bristol, Va. please let me tell you that this course is not one that he would want to join. There open April 15 to Thanksgiving and they aerify 4 times during those months the greens are some of the worst surfaces for this type of a club that I've been to. The club is a gouge from the minute you pull in the parking lot. If I had to recommend a great guys club it would be the Honors course in Chattanooga Tn. They have a great membership cottages to stay in for national members and the staff there is top notch. David Stone keeps the course in great shape no matter what type of weather conditions. I hope this helps you out.

[TEPaul]

Oh well, forget about Olde Farm in Bristol Va then.

Heh, I know one for him----there's this really special hidden gem in Clementon NJ. I've always wanted to see what their expression would be if someone walked in and opened up a briefcase with five hundred thousand smackers staring them in the face.  

[TEPaul]

It's sort of fun thinking about this. If it were me there're about a hundred clubs I'd like to join. Only problem is I don't think there's a golf club in the world that's worth much more than about $10,000 as an initiation fee. That includes my money or even somebody else's money who'd put it up for me like that guy who's putting it up for your friend.

Can you imagine being in a club full of people who're ALL so rich they're willing to put up hundreds of thousands of dollars just to JOIN a golf club?

The only thing that makes me more nervous than being around that many rich people at the same time is being in "roomful" of Southern girls. There's little in life that's more intimadating than being in room full of Southern girls.

You know that old saying, "Dumb like a fox?"

Well, that saying perfectly describes all Southern Boys. And why wouldn't they all be that way? Can you imagine growing up and having to actually live in a world full of rooms full of Southern girls?

Do you think it's possible to asemble a group of men from anywhere in the world who're clever enough to actually compete with a room full of Southern girls?  I don't.

[Chris Kane]

Heh, I know one for him----there's this really special hidden gem in Clementon NJ. I've always wanted to see what their expression would be if someone walked in and opened up a briefcase with five hundred thousand smackers staring them in the face.  

Tom, surely thats happened before?  Maybe not literally with a briefcase, but there must have been times when folks have tried to buy something which can't be bought?

[Jay Flemma]

Sean, while I wish prices in the US were lower, that 33K figure is a bargain for a truly superlative course.  Pradera is a tour de force.

Out of curiousity, how much is Bulls Bay?

I really like that course...if its in the 30K range, it owuld be a great find.  Is it much higher?

How bout ballyneal?

[TEPaul]

"Tom, surely thats happened before?  Maybe not literally with a briefcase, but there must have been times when folks have tried to buy something which can't be bought?"

ChrisK:

Humor, my man! I can pretty much guarantee you if somebody walked into PVGC cold and opened up a briefcase with $5 million smackers in it they'd ask him if he noticed how the driveway out leads across the railroad tracks.  

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Isn't the point that at most 'great clubs' having the connections is the currency, not having the actual cash?

I know Mr. William Gates is now a member at Augusta National, but they made him wait until the appropriate introduction was made by his bridge buddy,
Warren Buffet.  When Gates 'asked' to join they rebuffed his advances.  

Once asked, how expensive is it to get into the ANGC's, Pine Valleys, Cypress Points or Sand Hills?

Of course if you have to ask.......you probably can't afford it whether cash or connections!

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Jason, you may want to look at the benefactor's gift.  It may not be income, it could well be a gift and taxable to the individual giving the gift.  

Sounds like a parent or grandparent with an estate problem looking for a way to transfer some wealth.  Check with your tax advisor and attorney prior the transaction.

[John Kirk]

It's sort of fun thinking about this. If it were me there're about a hundred clubs I'd like to join. Only problem is I don't think there's a golf club in the world that's worth much more than about $10,000 as an initiation fee. That includes my money or even somebody else's money who'd put it up for me like that guy who's putting it up for your friend.

Can you imagine being in a club full of people who're ALL so rich they're willing to put up hundreds of thousands of dollars just to JOIN a golf club?

The only thing that makes me more nervous than being around that many rich people at the same time is being in "roomful" of Southern girls. There's little in life that's more intimadating than being in room full of Southern girls.

You know that old saying, "Dumb like a fox?"

Well, that saying perfectly describes all Southern Boys. And why wouldn't they all be that way? Can you imagine growing up and having to actually live in a world full of rooms full of Southern girls?

Do you think it's possible to asemble a group of men from anywhere in the world who're clever enough to actually compete with a room full of Southern girls?  I don't.

Guys like me aren't fortunate enough to have the proper connections, or a visible and impressive professional career, in order to gain access into the world of old private clubs.  When considering a golf club to join I am generally limited to new golf clubs still recruiting members.  Which is fine by me; I am a big fan of modern golf course design.  However, first time club members must help pay for the golf course as part of our membership, so there are no $10,000 initiations.

Yes, it is very strange playing golf where everyone is so wealthy.  Very hard to get used to.  It does not jibe with my middle class upbringing and egalitarian sensibilities.

No, I would be very comfortable spending time in a roomful of Southern girls, given a few simple criteria.  They've got a nice way of talking.  Who would try to compete with them?  There's a very funny scene in the movie "Ray", where Ray Charles meets Ahmet Ertegun of Atlantic Records for the first time, where Ray explains what "country dumb" means.  Well, in this case, call it "west coast suburb flatlander from the land of Eichlers dumb".

So Raphael, there's a big wide world of golf courses out there.  Parkland courses, hilly courses, sandy courses.  What does your friend like?  Is he a good player?  Does he appreciate the added complexity of golf on firm turf in inclement (windy) weather?  Or does he want the super sweet experience of playing in a mature forest on a calm day?  

Sorry, Jason B., this is a subject I'm keen on, since I researched national golf club memberships a couple years back.

[Anthony Butler]

Am I missing something here? Are there no waiting lists at the clubs mentioned? If you waved a half a million dollars at the Admissions Committee at MPCC it would avail you nothing. There are 135 applicants on the waiting list and as only about twenty five memberships are sold a year, it can take five years to get in.

5 year waiting list is good. NSWGC (nowhere near as exclusive as any of the clubs mentioned) has a 12 year waiting list for full membership.

I would assume many of the clubs mentioned so far would have similar waiting lists, unless they control the amount of applicants to those whom they really want as members.

NSWGC does have a 2 corporate memberships they sell each year for $50k that allows you to skip the 12 year waiting list. This represents a premium of approximately 4 times the current initiation fee. I was very lucky in joining NSWGC 10 years ago, as my grandfather and great uncle were 50+ year members at the time, which dramatically shortened my time on the waiting list.

On the general topic of memberships, I imagine the only way you could join a top 50 private club in US without assuming your rightful place at the back of the waiting list would be if a prominent current member was in your family tree. Making exceptions even for 'Richie Rich' types stirs up the current membership too much... if they are turning down corporate days, why would they want someone who may not be 'membership material' in the club permanently?

[Eric Franzen]

Quite different here in Sweden.

I often play the lovely course (Nicholson/Morrison - 1932) at Stockholms GK in the summertime. If your family doesn't have a history in the club the waiting time would be around 60 years for a membership.

The initiation fee? Around 1000 USD.

There is only one private club in the whole country - Svartinge GK - opened in 2001. Their membership's sells for around 25 000 USD.

[Jason Blasberg]

Sorry, Jason B., this is a subject I'm keen on, since I researched national golf club memberships a couple years back.

John:

You may have misunderstood my problems with this post, I too am keen on discussing the merits and, within reason, the accessibility of any club in the world (I believe as I'm sure you do that certain club matters should remain club matters).  

My problem with the first post was the flaunting about of the ability to drop 500k on a club.  Perhaps that was not the author's intention but that's they way I took it.  Moreover, most everyone here knows or can easily find out what the cost structure is at most of the destination clubs around the country.  So why broadcast it?  Besides, anyone with that kind of money to drop on a club likely doesn't discuss monetary issues like that in such a public forum.    

When I first read the initial post it struct me as quite odd and likely as a marketing test for someone affiliated with a project.   It still does.  

Jason

[Bob_Huntley]

Sorry, Jason B., this is a subject I'm keen on, since I researched national golf club memberships a couple years back.

John:

You may have misunderstood my problems with this post, I too am keen on discussing the merits and, within reason, the accessibility of any club in the world (I believe as I'm sure you do that certain club matters should remain club matters).  

My problem with the first post was the flaunting about of the ability to drop 500k on a club.  Perhaps that was not the author's intention but that's they way I took it.  Moreover, most everyone here knows or can easily find out what the cost structure is at most of the destination clubs around the country.  So why broadcast it?  Besides, anyone with that kind of money to drop on a club likely doesn't discuss monetary issues like that in such a public forum.    

When I first read the initial post it struct me as quite odd and likely as a marketing test for someone affiliated with a project.   It still does.  

Jason

Jason,

I think this is the most intelligent reponse that I've seen here.

Bob

[David Wigler]

Taking this question purely at face value, I would have to agree with the others who said Yeaman's Hall.  It is a ten minute drive from a major airport (Charleston) and a 75 minute flight from DC.  If $500k is on the table, then clearly he could keep a set of clubs at the course.  He could board a plane at 8:00am and make a 10:00am tee time at one of the best courses in the country (And IMO one of the top five "Members clubs" in the whole US).  On top of all that, it is golf season almost all year long.  That would be my choice in your scenario.

[Jerry Kluger]

I very much agree with the Charleston, SC area as it would offer the opportunity to play more often.  That being said however, I would suggest the River Club at Kiawah.  First class all the way, two courses which include Cassique, and the availability of the Ocean Course.  They were building some cottages which one could rent near the Ocean Course, plus they were building homes for sale at Cassique.  

[Voytek Wilczak]

Have your friend drop $400K on Liberty National in NJ.

But only if he/she is in NYC a lot and does a lot of business there.

I hear Rudy, The Donald, Mr Kraft, and Mr Getty are members.

[Raphael_Larson]

My problem with the first post was the flaunting about of the ability to drop 500k on a club.  Perhaps that was not the author's intention but that's they way I took it.  Moreover, most everyone here knows or can easily find out what the cost structure is at most of the destination clubs around the country.  So why broadcast it?  Besides, anyone with that kind of money to drop on a club likely doesn't discuss monetary issues like that in such a public forum.    

Jason -- Your point is well taken.  Upon further reflection, I probably should not have listed a dollar amount.  My intention was not to flaunt anything, but rather to make clear that money was not the issue ... availability/access is.  

More accurately, the question should have been phrased:  

My friend has an offer to join a golf club (or clubs) anywhere in the country.  He is not particularly knowledgeable about GCA, but knows enough to know that it should be considered when joining a club.  He has asked for my advice b/c he knows that I enjoy/ study GCA.  However, I don't begin to have the knowledge or experience of the the folks on this board; accordingly, I'm seeking some advice from this imminently qualified forum.  So I ask -- which courses should someone who cares about quality golf, but doesn't necessarily study GCA consider joining?   And if you were in the lucky position, as I am, to benefit as a regular guest to whatever club(s) he joins, which clubs would you recommend for selfish reasons?    

Raphael

[JESII]

Raphael,

I think other factors should be considered. Most have been mentioned throughout this thread, but how important is location (read: convinience to DC)? How important is the business/client entertainment factor? I think if you can answer those two (pin down a region of the country/world, and describe club requirements for entertainment) this board will give you the answer you're looking for.