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Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Proportional Representation
« on: April 28, 2006, 05:25:35 PM »
On my page-view of the topics, currently on offer on the top page of GCA, one subject is pertinent to Europe (at this moment).  The rest are US-based.  This is not a criticism.  Are we Brits or Euros over-represented?   Should we take up arms against the Americans who send us Palmer, Nicklaus and Weiskopf to design our top courses?  Do we rest on our laurels?  

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proportional Representation
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2006, 06:10:25 PM »
Mark -

You should take up arms. You should have a long time ago.

The problem is one I've commented on before. Why are there so few "name" architects based in the UK? Was there no one to apprentice with because there was (essentially) no post WWII generation of UK-based architects? Fewer new courses to work on? Fewer real estate developments? What am I missing?

Bob

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proportional Representation
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2006, 06:30:31 PM »
Perhaps this makes your point, Mark, but who are the British architects that are working today?  I know of David Kidd, Donald Steel/Tom Mackenzie (but Steel may be retired), and Martin Hawtree, who I know of as a renovator.  Are there others we should know?  Aside from St. Andrews No. 7, does Kidd have anything in the works in the UK?  Does Hawtree have any original designs of note?

John Goodman

Re:Proportional Representation
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2006, 09:19:15 PM »
Mark -

Why are there so few "name" architects based in the UK?

They've already built all the great courses, maybe?

 Seriously, are there many courses being built in the UK generally?  My thoroughly uninformed sense is that most courses of note being built over there are to capitalize (capitalise) on the foreign tourists as much as anything -

I for one would like to see more UK topics up here.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Proportional Representation
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2006, 09:30:53 PM »
Britain was well supplied with good and affordable golf courses for most of the last century.  Even when I was there in 1982 there was very little new construction going on and only 3 or 4 firms ekeing out a living in the business, with half of their projects on the Continent.

Thus, there weren't many opportunities for younger designers to apprentice.

There are a handful of highly visible projects underway in the UK right now, but what's beneath them?  How many courses really opened there last year?  Less than ten?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proportional Representation
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2006, 09:47:58 PM »
Mark,
Ireland and Northern Ireland combined are about the size of Indiana. The United Kingdom (less N.Ireland), is a bit smaller than Colorado. There are something like 3,000 courses in Ireland and the UK.

There can't be much room left for any great number of architects to flourish.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proportional Representation
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2006, 02:13:37 AM »
Mark you’ve posted on here before about how little interest there is in Architecture over here and I’m in complete agreement.  About ten days ago Marc Haring posted some pictures of a new upmarket course near Bournemouth that had no name designer.  Could you imagine any upmarket project in the States trying that?

Tom is probably about right in the number of new courses.  I would say about 90% of the new courses are designed to cater for the tail end of the pay and play explosion of 20 years ago.  Then there are a few top end designs which are usually private. I've played Bearwood Lakes an exclusive club laid out by Hawtree it wasn't bad but it wasn't great.    http://www.bearwoodlakes.co.uk/

The market is driven by developers who are obsessed with putting in features they see on the PGA tour; hence you get the course Marc showed with Heathland course featuring white sand and lakes in front of greens.  Another recent opening, a CCFAD (thanks Brent ;)), which is marketed as 'The Blakes Experience'   is an ‘inland links’ complete with lakes and an island green. ;D   http://www.blakesgolfclub.com the extensive local marketing makes more of the Chef having worked in a Michelin starred restaurant than it does of Swann Designs, the architects. Also it features sleepered bunkers and Carts with GPS plus.  Don’t you get the impression the potential punters are not a terribly sophisticated market?

The only 'recent' opening that featured an 'Architect' as a part of it's marketing strategy was Chart Hills, again a CCFAD (love it). The course has been generally very well received and has hosted the Womens Open.  The named architect was Nicholas Alexander Faldo who is one of our all time hero's, but as far as I know it's his only British commission to date. (Steve Smyers was heavily involved behind the scenes though it’s not usually credited as a co design).  Faldo is still high profile over here with his youth program etc and he writes a monthly column for one of the big golf magazine's which is mostly about architecture he loves.

(We do have an insider on the last two courses and hopefully he’ll post on these – haven’t seen anything in a while).

Tom Doak it would be interesting to know if there are plans to use your name in the marketing of Archerfield. I understand the developers are American so they might have a different take on it, do they think they British Market is different in this respect or will it be marketed solely to Americans where your name means something?

The magazines mostly pay lip service to the subject, but credit where credit is due Golf World has been running more on the subject.  The April issue features Faldo commenting on Augusta's back 9 and the changes, an article by David Owen on the early days, an excerpt from Taylor's autobiography (one of a series of excerpts from the archives on the old dead guys), a two page photo spread that each month features 'Top 100 Gold' (this month Cruden Bay) and 3 pages celebrating the best Harry Colt courses.  Hopefully they are increasing their circulation and will attract more interest in the subject.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2006, 02:15:18 AM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proportional Representation
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2006, 03:49:20 AM »
Thanks for mentioning my post of a few days ago Tony. Here is a link.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=23181

I think I did hint of my great disappointment in the course but can now categorically state that it was a train wreck of a lost opportunity. Frankly the course had no architectural merit whatsoever and believe me the site was fantastic.

I don’t know what has gone wrong with UK architecture when we had such a glorious past. I really am struggling to think of anything original. They all appear to be a cross between RTJ and Fazio with more than a hint of Robert Bruce Harris but I guess that is what the public want. To your average UK punter the ultimate golfing experience is to be found on the Costa Del Sol.

I did a short residential course on golf architecture a year or two back run by a couple of British PGA designers and I was stunned about their lack of knowledge. They didn’t even know about such classic hazards as the old bunker fronting #8 at St Georges Hill.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Proportional Representation
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2006, 07:45:41 AM »
Tony M:  Just in the past year I have seen quite a few ads for golf courses in the States which did not mention the designer's name -- unthinkable in the past ten years, when the architect's name WAS the marketing strategy.  The times are changing a bit.

As for our project in Scotland, they did name the course The Renaissance Club at Archerfield after my firm, but perhaps that's a subtler way of using my name than calling it The Tom Doak Course at ---.  They already use a bunch of quotes from me in their brochures and web site, but they are marketing principally to Americans.  Mr. Trump's course (if approved) will use his own name more than Tommy Fazio's to market itself; I am curious to see how much St. Andrews will market David Kidd's name on the new No. 7.  But, that's all marketing BS; it's not got anything to do with the quality of the architecture which was the original subject here.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proportional Representation
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2006, 07:59:07 AM »
Mark,
I have provided written recommendation reports for two courses over your way in Ireland including an old Mackenzie design that has not aged well and needs work.   Maybe there is opportunity for this kind of representation from guys on this side of the pond.  I don't know how many are interested in this kind of thing but there is opportunity there.  

As you know from our exchange of emails, I am back over again in a few weeks including a trip to Scotland as well.  Maybe we can catch up for a pint?

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proportional Representation
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2006, 04:57:57 PM »
I've just spent the last four days taking Tom Williamsen around Sandiway (Ray/Colt), Delamere Forest (Fowler), Reddish Vale (MacKenzie), Prestbury (Colt), Adlington par-3 (Hawtree), Stockport (Herd/Barrie) and Bull Bay (Fowler).  At this B-list level we are well represented by both imaginative use of land and sheer inspiration.  These are courses which will never threaten the top 100, not even the top 200, but they make you purr.  Just come and try them!

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proportional Representation
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2006, 07:02:07 PM »
Thanks for mentioning my post of a few days ago Tony. Here is a link.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=23181

I think I did hint of my great disappointment in the course but can now categorically state that it was a train wreck of a lost opportunity. Frankly the course had no architectural merit whatsoever and believe me the site was fantastic.

I don’t know what has gone wrong with UK architecture when we had such a glorious past. I really am struggling to think of anything original. They all appear to be a cross between RTJ and Fazio with more than a hint of Robert Bruce Harris but I guess that is what the public want. To your average UK punter the ultimate golfing experience is to be found on the Costa Del Sol.

I did a short residential course on golf architecture a year or two back run by a couple of British PGA designers and I was stunned about their lack of knowledge. They didn’t even know about such classic hazards as the old bunker fronting #8 at St Georges Hill.


Marc

The gap between the quality of build between old and new architecture in Britain is enormous.  All those classic courses and it doesn't appear to register.

I know the budgets are tiny and the land often stinks, but still...and the modern work on old courses is nearly always inferior, by a large margin.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2006, 07:04:56 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

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