Comfort Zone

[Glenn Spencer]

In the Augusta tees thread, someone mentioned that people playing tees that were too much for them was becoming systemic. I take a different slant on that. I encourage it. I would think that playing the back tees would be the quickest way for a golfer to improve their skills. If one is used to shooting 80 from the middle and 80 from the back, who is the better golfer. Why is this practice frowned upon? I would think that the player's confidence would grow much faster when they do play up after playing back. I am looking to hear some comments either way on this. Thank you.

[JESII]

Does the 10 year old improve their basketball skills when they play with the 18 year olds that never give him a break? They steal the ball every time, and block every shot and run around and past him when they have the ball.

The answer is, yes some of them do get better, but not all, some just decide the hell with this.

[Jordan Wall]

The best way to get better is by lessons.

Not by playing the back tees where you cant hit the fairway.

[George Pazin]

I think it's frowned upon for pace of play reasons. There can't be many things more frustrating than being a stick and having someone hack it around slowly from the back tees.

I don't know whether it would make one better unless one plays a lot. In my own limited experience, practice is the best way to improve.

[Glenn Spencer]

George,

Absolutely, practice is the best way to get better!! I play pretty good and when I see someone hacking, I don't care what tees they are playing. I mean, a hack is a hack, no? At a public course you are in for a long day no matter what, at a private course, I would respect the individual for wanting to challenge themself. I think a steady diet of practice and challenging yourself is the best way to get better. The more clubs you hit, the better your game will get, one can't get something out of oneself what he does not ask, right?

[John Goodman]

The last time I played Ross Bridge, the latest RTJ Trail course here in Birmingham, my wife and I were behind a foursome of guys all playing from the 8,200 yard tips.  We caught them on about the 8th and stayed behind them until around the 13th, when we gave up and left.  On every non-par 3 hole, at least one of the foursome (and sometimes two) would hit a drive that would not get to the next set of tees up.  I cannot imagine that playing the back tees was helping any of them improve as a golfer.  Maybe improve as a hunter of lost golf balls, but that's about it.  I cannot imagine that any of them enjoyed the experience much beyond being able to tell their buddies that they played an 8200 yard course.

[Glenn Spencer]

Needless to say, I was not referring to 8200 yard courses.

[John Goodman]

But if the golfer is not good enough to be playing the tips - whatever their length - shouldn't he be playing a shorter tee until he is good enough to move back?  Mine was an extreme example but I believe the same thing happens a lot at courses that are 7000 yards.    

[Glenn Spencer]

John- I think that is my question. I am not really sure. Should one play the front tees before moving back or should he do both to give his game something to adjust to? If you play at a club all the time from the same tees, are you not just inviting mediocrity?

[Jim Johnson]

Glenn, I think Jordan is right. Lessons are the way to improve. We can play all we want out on the course, but it's not the place to practise. Besides, without a proper instructor, we'd just be repeating our same old mistakes, no?

We were behind a foursome one afternoon, which was playing from the tips, and there was one dude in that group who would have been lucky to break 110. Needless to say, it was a long round, and we quit and headed in to the clubhouse on the 7th teebox.

'Course the quickly approaching t-storm had something to do with our decision  


JJ

[John Goodman]

John- I think that is my question. I am not really sure. Should one play the front tees before moving back or should he do both to give his game something to adjust to? If you play at a club all the time from the same tees, are you not just inviting mediocrity?

If one is mediocre from the up tees, though, then it is a certainty what the result will be from moving back; playing from longer tees won't make you a better player.  There are probably markers for when a player should move back periodically to test himself - the most prominent being his score, but also his ability to successfully avoid and/or extricate himself from hazards, the distance he attains from the tee, and the like.  Your point is well taken if the golfer's handicap is plummetting from the more forward tees.   If you're a stick, by all means move back.  If you're not, in general stay forward until you are.  All of this is from a guy who has no business on the back tees, at least if they are longer than about 6800 yards.

[Matt_Ward]

Too many people have blue tee-itis.

They simply hold up the party under the delusion that with just a little bit more playing they can play with the big boys.

Such denial is how Vegas got built.

If anything -- people should be moving up one tee box because it would likely help them progress faster than the reverse.

[Dave Bourgeois]

I think it is great to get out of your comfort zone when you are a serious golfer looking to improve.  By serious I mean one who practices, knows the game, and can navigate around a tougher course.

Now if you have a general group of 20+ handicappers that does not practice, and only plays a few times a year, and they want to go to the tips that is more of an issue.  These are folks that are doing it to do it, and if it slows play than oh well they paid their money.  

To me it comes down to etiquette.  You should know your skill and think about the others around before making a decision.  BTW I think it is great when score cards have a suggested tee for a particular handicap to maximize the FUN.

[cary lichtenstein]

Playing from the worse set of tees can only lead you to quitting the game.

[Phil Benedict]

People who refuse to play tees appropriate for their skill level just drive me crazy.  A pet peave of mine is seniors who refuse to play gold tees.  Even if they can't clear hazards from the regular tees.  One more thing that slows play down, and unnecessarily so.  I know this makes me sound like an insensitive lout, but slow play is killing the game.

[JLahrman]

I've heard of college coaches having their teams play practice rounds from the women's tees.  First of all, you get a lot of work in at the awkward distances when you can almost drive greens.  Secondly, you get used to being under par.

I think all that happens for sure when you play the back tees is that you hit driver more often.

[Mark_Fine]

I normally don't get into these kind of threads but is the concern with people "playing the wrong set of tees" speed of play?  If a foursome all shoots 100+ from the tips and plays in 4 hours, why does it matter where they play if they are not holding anyone up?  To me if a guy shoots 120 from the 7200 yards tees, has fun and doesn't hold up play, let him have at it.

I play off 3 or so these days and would probably get beat up playing the tips at Augusta National.  But I'd prefer to do that then play the 6000 yard tees and say I hit 8I into #13 and two putted for birdie.  

[Wayne Freeman]

It really bugs me that so many golfers play a set of tees that they have absolutely no business playing-  we have seniors at our club that can't hit it 150 yards and can never reach an average par 4 in regulation, but they insist on playing the blue tees. I don't care as long as they keep up the pace, but often times they hold everyone up.
   I wouldn't be averse to courses insisting that the tees played are determined by the handicap. The worst thing is when I travel to resort type courses, and some macho guys who can't break 100 play the back tees and make the rounds 5-6 hours.
   Is it true that the starter at Bethpage Black in the old days used to look at your swing and if it wasn't good enough you couldn't play.  

[TEPaul]

I'm totally with Mark Fine on this subject. Within reason I think any golfer should be able to play the tees he wants to play---again within reason. Obvioiusly noone wants to see Grandma playing the tip tees, obviously including Grandma.  

A good rule of thumb is probably to apply the title of this thread---eg "Comfort Zone".

I can't imagine why a 30 handicapper would enjoy playing the tip tees on a golf course and the issue of keeping pace is all about keeping pace, not necessarily which tees someone plays from.

I got into the habit of playing the tip tees all the time on any course I played, and I did that for a couple of reasons. First, I wanted to see the whole course and, second, I did it because for about twenty years I played nothing but tournament golf and playing just tournament golf you have to play from the tip tees.

My problem was that playing at the level I was competing at I was always unusually short compared to most of my fellow competitors, particularly with a driver but still I had to do it somehow, so I always wanted to be used to tip tees on any course.

Just as an example that some might be able to relate to, even when playing at my best from the tips at PVGC I'd generally have to steer a little left off the tee on #6 instead of trying to go over the right side, and I'd have to steer a little right sometimes on #13 instead of going over Holman's Hollow and on #16 from the tips I'd have to go a little left.

So I think within reason any golfer should be able to play the tips he feels are in his comfort zone whatever that is, and, again, pace is just pace despite what tees one plays.

This enforced policy in GB that no one can play from the tips, no matter who you are, unless it's during the "medal" rounds is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Craig Ammerman and I ran into that all the time a couple of summers ago. On one course we were behind a bunch of hackers playing a medal round for handicapping from the tips and they were all over the place holding us up. When they finally let us through and saw we were playing from the tips they got all over us and told us we couldn't do that.

After teeing off through them from the tips we just said; "OK, no problem" and as soon as we were past them we just kept playing the tip tees.

Some of the people on here who think the tip tees should only be for big hitters is even dumber, in my opinion. If tip tees are only for big hitters than I think there's probably some flaws in the design of the golf course.

I was particularly struck by that really cool little South African Tim Clark in the Masters. He said the course was obviously best for him when it was firm and fast and if it was wet he felt there were a few par 4s he probably couldn't even reach with his two best shots.

Should ANGC refuse to let Tim Clark play from the tip tees because he's not very long?

In case anyone forgot, Tim Clark finished second in the Masters last week.

Again, if any golfer is playing tees where there're forced carries and such he can't possibly make even with his best shot, I can't imagine why he would enjoy that. If that kind of thing is NOT outside his "comfort zone" than what is?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Not really on topic but...I have a good friend who happens to be a very good player...made it thru local Open qualifying quite a few times...has won a bunch of club pro sectional events...that type of player. He has sought out a "real" teacher who he feels may help him take another step forward with his game. First thing the new teacher says is move to the front tees and stay there until you are comfortable scoring consistently in the low 60's, then start to move back. The instructor’s outlook...it's not about length, it's about learning to score. How many of you have moved forward only to find you score about the same? I know I found out that length is not the problem with my game. It's the shots around the green that usually separate the average from the good player, IMO.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

I've heard of college coaches having their teams play practice rounds from the women's tees.  First of all, you get a lot of work in at the awkward distances when you can almost drive greens.  Secondly, you get used to being under par.

JAL,

Peter Kostis told me that 10 years ago when we were playing a golf course that was 7,200+.
When I asked why, he gave a response similar to the second one you presented.  He said that it would help you make a lot of birdies and get you in a scoring headset with respect to getting under par.  I had never thought of it in that context, but it makes sense in terms of establishing a mindset[/color]

I think all that happens for sure when you play the back tees is that you hit driver more often.

Glenn Spencer,

When you play tees beyond your ability, what happens ?

You press.

And when you press you lose your tempo and your controlled  swing by trying to hit the ball as hard as you can.

The PGA Tour pros and many other pros and superior amateurs swing within themselves, with power in reserve.

An amateur playing from tees beyond his ability will not help his game via that futile exercise.

I almost always played from as far back as possible.
But, when my brain told me that those tees were beyond my ability, I moved up.   Now, I'm gradually moving back.

[Sean_A]

I normally don't get into these kind of threads but is the concern with people "playing the wrong set of tees" speed of play?  If a foursome all shoots 100+ from the tips and plays in 4 hours, why does it matter where they play if they are not holding anyone up?  To me if a guy shoots 120 from the 7200 yards tees, has fun and doesn't hold up play, let him have at it.

I play off 3 or so these days and would probably get beat up playing the tips at Augusta National.  But I'd prefer to do that then play the 6000 yard tees and say I hit 8I into #13 and two putted for birdie.  

I think this type of thinking which leads to longer rounds.  Golf shouldn't take four hours to play.  So if a set of tees requires four hours than folks should move up.  Simply letting people play through sounds alright in theory, but it slows the entire course down.  People shouldn't pace their groups based on the folks behind them, but on a 3.5 hour game.

Ciao

Sean

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Glenn, I think the practice tee and green as well as playing golf is where you improve your game. I find if anything people try to play a set of tees beyond their current abilities. I played a nice Fazio course called Sage Valley near Augusta  last week. The 2 groups ahead of us were Golf Digest guys and their clients. They were obviously 15 to 25 handicapers. Yet, they not only played the back tees, they would go to the tips or longer tees when available. They made a beautiful day and a wonderful 4 hour round into a 5 hour round. It was painful to watch them not even play the hole but hike around in the woods all day 150 yards off the tee.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

I normally don't get into these kind of threads but is the concern with people "playing the wrong set of tees" speed of play?  If a foursome all shoots 100+ from the tips and plays in 4 hours, why does it matter where they play if they are not holding anyone up?  

Because that doesn't happen.
You've created a premise with a predetermined conclusion, that they played in 4 hours.
Your premise wouldn't change if they shot 200 and played in 4 hours, but we know that doesn't happen.

When golfers play "special" golf courses, ones they've seen on TV or heard about, they want to play them as best they can, so, they don't rush, they take their round seriously.

All too often the "tips" overwhelms them.  Now, they're ego is faced with bruising.  If anything, they slow down, trying to regroup, trying to bear down and do the best that they can, and that results in slow play.

There's a reason for that big sign on the first tee at Bethpage Black.[/color]

To me if a guy shoots 120 from the 7200 yards tees, has fun and doesn't hold up play, let him have at it.

Again, you've created a premise with a predetermined conclusion, that he's playing at pace and having fun despite shooting 120 from 7,200.

Fun is usually a function of one's handicap relative to one's play.

A 5 handicap shooting 120 from 7,200 won't be having much fun, and it's doubtful that he'd be playing at pace.[/color]

I play off 3 or so these days and would probably get beat up playing the tips at Augusta National.  But I'd prefer to do that then play the 6000 yard tees and say I hit 8I into #13 and two putted for birdie.  

You won't be hitting 8-iron into # 13 unless it's your third shot.

I think the lure at ANGC is that we've seen it on TV for so many years that we've developed a unusual familiarity, a kinship with the course, as and such, I can see why many would want to play the back tees.

Who wouldn't want to stand on the 12th and 16th tees and pretend that they need to make par or birdie to win the Masters ?  It's a wonderful golf fantasy.

But, you're more likely to duplicate the shots you've seen on TV all of these years by playing the members tees then you are by playing the Masters tees.

Ideally, if you could play 36, playing one of each would be most satisfying.[/color]

[Glenn Spencer]

Patrick,

I guess I am just a different bird. When I am playing a hard golf course- say an Inverness or an Ocean Course from the back. I realize that I am probably not going to shoot 70, but I feel like I grind and find a way to shoot 74 or 76, something that is in my mind-reasonable. It doesn't happen every time. When I get "stuck" playing the up tees at a bachelor party or a scramble, I have noticed that I try to overpower and change my game, try to drive it within 20 yards of a green or on it on a short par 4. On par 5's I am only thinking eagle or easy birdie, this takes me out of my normal game and I think I end up playing, shooting and swinging worse, which then causes me to have to spend extra time on the practice tee correcting the bad habits that I have fostered that day. Can it work in reverse then?