Golf Digest...Another mistake

[John Kavanaugh]

Jordan,

Could you be a sweetheart and do some research for me...Which of the 5 star courses mentioned above are also in one of Golfweek's top 100 lists...also, is Kapalua...

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan:

Once again you keep blaming the selections on the magazine... it's the READERS who compile these.  GD doesn't miss or "get" anything here.  They simply compile the results of those readers willing to submit ratings.

Think Kapalua should be five stars?  Submit a rating and get your Dad and all your friends to do so as well - voila!  Next year it will be.

 

I am.

Plus, I just said it should be.

I now know GD does not rate it.

Have you rated any courses Tom??  I know you liked Kapalua and I was wondering if you happened to rate it??

Cheers

[Jay Flemma]

I was also dismayed to see that they ignored Tobacco Road and Black Mesa...among others.

No question, a few headscratchers got in, more often than not, some Fazios...like TPC MB.  That is not a five star course...unless you use a seven star rating system.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Could you be a sweetheart and do some research for me...Which of the 5 star courses mentioned above are also in one of Golfweek's top 100 lists...also, is Kapalua...

My lunch period is over in a minute so I will but please wait until later today for an answer.

Thanks John.

[Jim Franklin]

I am a little surprised that TPC Myrtle Beach got 5 stars from the readers. I have played there a handful of times and liked it, but not 5 stars worth.

[mikes1160]

IMO, if you are worried about the gift you receive, then I don't want to hear what you have to say about a golf course!!

Glenn,

Hardly worried. Just a gentle jab.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jordan:  I've never submitted "ratings" for Places to Play.  I am a course rating panelist for the Best New Courses and Top 100 in the US lists, and I figure that's enough.  In that context, yes I did submit a form for Kapalua Plantation course and it got damn near all high marks.  It got among the lowest I've ever given for walkability, but that's to be expected.

The Places to Play list is done completely differently, as you've seen.  I do continue to believe it has value.  If I were to submit something for that, man lots of the 5 stars I see wouldn't get such because they're too damn expensive.  Remember "value" is supposed to count.  It's tough for me to give high value ratings for courses that cost $250+ to play... But I've harped on that way too much elsewhere.

Jay:  it's quite possible not enough people submitted ratings for Black Mesa or Tobacco Road - Places to Play does remain a total crapshoot.  Take it for what it's worth - a decent barometer only.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

Oh, wow!! So Sorry Mike, I was talking about the reviewer, not you!!

[John_Cullum]

As others have stated, "Places to Play" is a place to start and compiled by the readers. I remember playing my friend's course in Howie-in-the-hills FL and two people got hit in the head by wayward shots that day. The course was built in a relatively small area. When I got back home, "Places to Play" was in my mailbox and I looked up his course and one of the quotes was "where a helmet". I would say he was pretty accurate.

I think I know that course.

[Tom Huckaby]

Before people get too carried away dissecting this list and bemoaning missing courses, take a note of how it's compiled, once again:


Our readers reviewed thousands of courses they played over the previous year and rated them using a five-point scale for five separate criteria: the overall golf experience, the value for the money, the standard of service at the facility, the overall conditioning of the course, and the normal pace of play for an 18-hole round of golf.

Understand better why some are there, some might not be?

This is about as far afield from what most in here consider when evaluating a golf course as one can get.

That being said... it does have some worth.  I'd venture to say it might have more worth to the travelling budget-conscious golfer than an evaluation of pure golf course architecture... but of course I don't want to be excommunicated from the Church of Ran.

 

[Eric Franzen]

Take it for what it's worth - a decent barometer only.

TH

Exactly.

Please remember...

The purpose of the list is NOT to provide a barometer for golf course architecture.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Eric - ABSOLUTELY!  I just posted the criteria they use.  The only part architecture plays is perhaps as part of the "overall golf experience" - but even then it's up to the beholder.

Aye, but here's the rub... if I'm going to a given area and either can't or won't rely on connections to set me up... meaning I'm in the public realm, on my own dime... Especially considering my reality (normal for many) that I also have not much TIME available to play....

I'd rely on Places to Play far more than any recommendation based on golf course architecture alone.

And therein lies the worth.

TH

[Eric Franzen]

Aye, but here's the rub... if I'm going to a given area and either can't or won't rely on connections to set me up... meaning I'm in the public realm, on my own dime... Especially considering my reality (normal for many) that I also have not much TIME available to play....

I'd rely on Places to Play far more than any recommendation based on golf course architecture alone.

And therein lies the worth.

TH

There seems to be some glitches in the rating system though.
I checked out the profile for Pacific Grove http://www.golfdigest.com/placestoplay/index.ssf?COURSE_ID=5547 and discovered that it got 2.0 in walkability rating.

Maybe it is something wrong with me... but I look on PG as a really walkable course.

[Tom Huckaby]

Eric:

Well, once again, there are bound to be glitches, because it's based on pure chance submissions by whomever feels like submitting such.  Heck yes, PG Muni is a very easy walk - but perhaps ratings were submitted by a solid group of folks who just hated going through the parking lot and across the street from 9 green to 10 tee.

Thus I say, it's a good barometer, but one ought not to delve too heavily into the specifics, nor rely on it too completely.

But again, I do believe it has it's worth, because it measures things that do matter.

TH

[Eric Franzen]

...but perhaps ratings were submitted by a solid group of folks who just hated going through the parking lot and across the street from 9 green to 10 tee.

The first rule about Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club  

[SL_Solow]

Tom;  For anyone interested in architecture, this list provides zero valuable information and, as you rightly point out, it doesn't pretend to do so.  Having said that, there is no reason either to attack or defend it in this forum.  It is a rating of the "total experience" whatever that is by a "panel" whose only qualifications are that they are willing to fill out a form.  No screening, no standards for measurement and criteria that are irrelevant to GCA.  Beyond these minor shortcomings, its almost perfect.  So why not drop it; nothing to be learned here.  I know it wasn't your thread but for one who purports to perceive the shortcomings you are spending a lot of time arguing for the defense.

[Tom Huckaby]

SL:

Wise counsel.  Just understand it's tough to leave undefended someone (thing) that one values who (which) is having his (its) integrity impugned, for completely invalid reasons.  Jordan and others keep saying Golf Digest did this, Golf Digest missed that.  I'm just trying to get them to assess this based on how it actually works, not on how they THINK it does.

 

In any case, when have we EVER considered courses based on architecture alone?  And more importantly, why should we?

TH

[Andy Troeger]

Jordon:

Be happy that GD gives us information. It gives you a beginning from which to do your our research as to which courses to play.

The stars are inconsistent, but it gives you an opportunity to log onto their websites, read course reviews, use the search feature (when it works) on GCA, etc

The Places to Play guide has a purpose for serious golfers...and Cary nailed it. When going to a destination, it gives detailed information from which you can do more research to figure out what courses are truly worth playing. Using it for anything further is probably going to lead to some hit-or-miss results.

[Matt_Ward]

The Digest "Places to Play" booklet is nothing more than the collective wisdom (I wince when typing that) of Joe Sixpack and Mary Wineglass.

I take it for what it's worth -- very little.

Too much of the assessment comes in areas that have little direct tie to the design qualities associated with the courses. I mean some people get off if the beer isn't cold or if there name isn't remembered by everyone from the time they enter the grounds until they get into the car.

I salute some of the winners because their architecture supports it (e.g. Pacific Dunes, to name just one).

Andy / Cary are both correct. Use the info at your peril because too many of the "rated" gems are there for nothing more than style and hype. The substance of quality architecture is simply included among the many items that were weighed. Frankly, if Paa-Ko Ridge is a five-star layout than Black Mesa deserves nothing less.

[John Kavanaugh]

Where the hell do you get off thinking you know more than the collective wisdom of the golfing public when it comes to picking places to play...Yea, I'm talking to you..

[John Kavanaugh]

Let me give a perfect example...I think Bandon Trails is a better course than Bandon Dunes.  Bandon Dunes will forever be loved by the public more...All that makes me is a pompous ass, not more clever, not smarter...just an ass.  I'm starting to get sick of my own voice telling my friends how great Bandon Trails is when I know they will like Bandon Dunes more...I'm done with it..

[Jordan Wall]

(source: golfdigest.com)

Short article about this years five star courses:

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/index.ssf?/courses/gd200605fivestarcourses.html

John, these are the courses in Golfweek Top 100.  That leaves 6 of 17 that are not on the list.

Pacific Dunes

Bandon Dunes

The Ocean Course

Pinehurst #2

Blackwolf Run

Bethpage Black

Whistling Straits

Spyglass Hill

Pebble Beach

Bulle Rock

[John Kavanaugh]

Jordan,

Are you sure Arcadia and Paa-Ko aren't on the list...

[Jordan Wall]

Ahh, Arcadia is, I thought I included that.

Paa Ko I remembered was like 88 or something but did not find it listed when I checked.

It is possible I just missed it.

Sorry re: Arcadia.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

You're are soooooo right.

Mea culpa on my part.

I tip my hat to the tastes of the Joe Sixpacks of this world. How dare I presume a remote ability to be above such a collective sense of enlightment on golf courses.