Riding triplex greensmowers vs. walking greensmowers

[Anthony_Nysse]

To each their own....
  Maybe someone can shed some light on this, but why is it that PGA TOUR courses all walk mow their greens? I believe tha last course that PGA played on, where the greens were T-plexed was The Buick Invitational at Torry Pines PRIOR to the renovation....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[rocket]

The flex 21 are great only if you have undulating greens.   Because of the floating heads.   The walk mowers in theory as single heads weight more than a triplex with all mowers on the ground.  That's why you you have your bench setting lower on T-plex.  
What t-plex cuts the best?  Jacobsens.  2. John Deere and last is your Toro.   Why?   The Jacobsens cut more agressive due to it pushes the reels across the greens.  While Toro pulls the reels across the greens.    The John Deere are okay but those 2500 only have 3 to 4 years until they start breaking down.

I walk greens during the week and triplex on weekends.

[Anthony_Nysse]

RJ-
  I will go against anyone who thinks that a Jacobsen reels cuts better than a Toro Flex head on a triplex.....and I've used all 3 in the last 2 years....RED IRON! They don't call it Jac junk with a reason. Seriously though, many of the courses in my area, (Colleton River, Belfair, Berkeley Hall and Harbor Town) all have Deere equipment via lease. Each of these courses have relatively flat greens in comparisons to LCC, but everyone of the has Toro Flex 21 walkers...that's saying something....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[rocket]

Then toro must have one helluva good salesmen in your area.  

[Craig Sweet]

RJ...you are using Jakes? What model greens king?

[rocket]

Craig.  Actually I'm not.  I'm at a new golf course and the equipment is all John Deere.  Greensmower are 2500.  But I should be getting a couple of Jacs  soon.    And a second hand toro on deck for my viberating rollers and thatch away reels  though I prefer the GRADEN.

[Joe Hancock]

Riding mowers with down-pressure (Jac, JD) are great where the grass can grow aggressively (full sun, good air circulation). Toro (floating heads) can be an advantage where the grass has hinderances such as shade or poor air movement. Also, Toro will be less likely to scalp on highly contoured greens and/ or bermudagrass in mid-season.

Everyone grows up with preferences in equipment. Part of it is familiarity in set-up and maintenance, some of it is in operator comfort and controls, etc. I have my preferences, but that doesn't make the other brands junk.(Their engineers make them junk! )

I've used everything, and there are situations that make one brand better suited to the task than another. The best superintendents are the ones that can adjust their perceptions to do the best thing for their course.

Joe

[Anthony_Nysse]

RJ,
  They don't call is Jake Junk for nothing! Like I said, it's your own personal choice. I've grown up with a majority of Toro, though have used all three and I'll stand by Toro and their service. They continue to put out cutting (not oun) equipment that hasn't been matched by the other two-Pro Core 48, Hydroject, Sidewinder and the Flex 21....none of the other 2 have been able to match.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[rocket]

Joe  you are absolutely correct.  I am aware with Jac I should be careful with clean up cuts.
Anthony I'm going to call your local Jac dealer to pay you a visit.  Ask him to leave you a machine to demo.  

[Anthony_Nysse]

RJ,
  That's funny cause our Jac dealer knows that this area is Toro and Deere....He wouldn't be able to get in the gates!  ;)In fact, I haven't seen a Jac dealer in over 2 years and our Deere salemans stops by once a year.... with his Regional Manager...They know we bleed Red!
  RJ, on a serious note, you appear to be a die hard Orange guy...why do you have Deere equipment?

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Craig Sweet]

I could tell you some horror stories about the GK 6...we have had nothing but trouble with them since the day we got them...

[Peter Galea]

I'm going to call your local Jac dealer to pay you a visit.  Ask him to leave you a machine to demo.  

I hope your Jacobsen dealer is better than mine. I asked for a demo on the 5 deck rotary 4 months ago. I've made several followup calls and still no demo. I guess they don't want to sell equipment. Today I called the Jacobsen headquarters, they said they'd look into it and phone me back...yeah right. I don't mean to threadjack, just had to vent.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tony,
Jac lost market share because Textron did a very poor job of supporting distributors and eventually many courses with Jac equipment were unable to get the parts and support needed to do the job.
However, Jac cutting units can hold their own with any other brand. Their tractors were a little weak and had a tendency to overheat in southern climates.

Textron has recommitted to the golf business and in a few years I expect them to once again be a player in the golf industry. But a whole generation of young supts and assistant supts have heard nothing but bad things about Jac and thus many have made up their minds without really doing much research.
Rarely have I seen it wise to completely dismiss one brand and completely commit to another. I love Toro equipment, and have it in mind for my new course, but I also like some of the JD & Jac line. It’s only my opinion, but to come here and call all one brand has to offer junk shows a lack of professionalism and respect for many experienced supts who produce a very, very good product with the brand of equipment you are so quick to dismiss.

[Mike_Young]

Tony,
Jac lost market share because Textron did a very poor job of supporting distributors and eventually many courses with Jac equipment were unable to get the parts and support needed to do the job.
However, Jac cutting units can hold their own with any other brand. Their tractors were a little weak and had a tendency to overheat in southern climates.

Textron has recommitted to the golf business and in a few years I expect them to once again be a player in the golf industry. But a whole generation of young supts and assistant supts have heard nothing but bad things about Jac and thus many have made up their minds without really doing much research.
Rarely have I seen it wise to completely dismiss one brand and completely commit to another. I love Tore equipment, and have it in mind for my new course, but I also like some of the JD & Jac line. It’s only my opinion, but to come here and call all one brand has to offer junk shows a lack of professionalism and respect for many experienced supts who produce a very, very good product with the brand of equipment you are so quick to dismiss.

Don ,
I also prefer Toro but would not dismiss any of the top 3.  But would you not agree that the mechanic makes the difference.  I used to sell Toro in the mid 80's and I can tell you if you force a toro on a mechanic that likes Jake..it will never perform at optimum...he will see to it....and vice versa....jsut lke a chevy in hands of a Frd guy....
JMO

[Anthony_Nysse]

Don,
  I'm well aware of the downfall that textron has experienced over the last several years and understand there supposed "re-commitment" to the business. Then why is it still that so many supts and mechanics complain about not being able to get parts, poor service, can't get a demo, they've waited for parts for a month(Thanks Craig and Pete)-read the GCSAA forums. It's in there every week. Maybe I am just one of those young Superintendents/Assistants that have been around for the demise of Jacobsen, but I grew up on a golf course in Michigan where my father had Toro, worked in New York that had all Toro, went back to work in Michigan for 2 different Supts and they had all Toro and we currently have all Toro in Hilton Head. Come on, that can't be by accident. I've been working on golf courses for 15 years, under 5 different Supts at every kind of club from middle of the road public to high end private, and they've all had Toro. I think that is saying a lot about their services, quality of product and continuing to put out equipment that fits a superintendents needs...when was the last time that Jake put out something new, I mean, if you were to buy a GK4, it could be the same one that they produced 15 years ago...same model, same set up. What I'm saying is, Toro has continued to advance and step up, when Jake has had some serious issues to where even John Deere took over most of it's market. In my opinion, Jake's LF 3400 fwy unit is the only thing comparable to anything that Toro has. I've heard positive things about that unit, and I've also heard many mechanics say they wonder how Jake could get that right, but nothing else.....  

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Dan_Lucas]

I'm with Don here. It's the distributor that makes the difference. That is why there is more red iron in Michigan than the other two combined (educated guess).

All three make good and bad pieces with their own set of positives and negatives. I have mostly Toro but have pieces from all three.

[BCowan]

Nice thread, was curious as to how much has changed over last decade.  Does anyone see lithium ion powered capabililities along with diesel eliminating hydraulics for triplex in the future?

[A.G._Crockett]

Speaking for golfers, I don't think we'd ever know which way the greens were being mowed. 

At least, we wouldn't until there was a hydraulic leak.  Then we do.  For several months...

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Yeah, great thread.


My two cents (4 cents?):


1) My guess is cut quality is similar when the cutting units are maintained by a good mechanic.  Green speeds may be fast or slow, but it really has nothing to do with walk vs. ride.  Just as an example, the absolute fastest greens in my area are triplexed.


2)  The issues collar/surround wear are always going to be an issue, largely because of the tires.  A turning tire is just hard on turf.  A skilled operator can mitigate some of this by being gentle, but that adds time to the process and it's hard to coach.  Best example of this was at Old Mac where you could see tire tracks where every triplex turned on the surrounds.  My guess is they would never be able to walk mow with their greens acreage (They'd need like 7-8 walk mowers maybe) so it's a necessary evil.  As for cleanup passes, you can have a couple guys walk mow the cleanup passes, but then you're looking at a similar labor usage to just walk mowing all the greens (e.g. 2 guys triplexing, 2 guys cleanup, same as 4 walkmowers).


3)  The diesel electric stuff looks great, but our mechanic says that it's far less durable and needs to be adjusted more than the older hydraulic units.  For example, if the operator falls asleep and jumps a curb or something the thing is toast and needs to be readjusted.  It is nice to not worry about hydraulic fluid leaks though.


4)  USGA and other sand based greens seem to be fine with triplexing impact but I wonder how they do on older pushup topsoil greens?  Do you see all three tires in the form of depressions after a pass?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Walking greensmowers or hand mowing as known in the UK is marginally better than ride-ons.


The cost is dramatically more, especially at weekends. You need three times the staffing, ie each persons hand-mows 6 or 7 greens. With a 30 week year in the UK, it is not far off £30,000 extra to mow so adds £60 to the membership price.