Every Club needs a St. Olaf's....

[ForkaB]

I spent a couple of days this past week at Cruden Bay, and played their 9-holer (St. Olaf's) for the first time.  As people familiar with the Club will know, this course is placed in the middle of the "big" course and comprises much of the fabulous view that one gets of the links from the Clubhouse.

St. Olaf's is laid out over superb linksland, and designed by some not completely documented combination of Morris, Fowler and Simpson (as was the big course).  Although short (just over 5000 yards, par 64), the course is challenging, with excellent green sites, and demanding just about every club in the bag when playing in a 3-4 club wind, as I did.  Even though challenging, it is very beginner-friendly, and can be played in well under 3 hours (two loops).

If I were a member at Cruden Bay, I'd spend 50+% of my time on St. Olaf's having fun and honing my game, reserving games on the big course for competitions and visits from fellow Murcans.

Why don't more courses have their own "St. Olaf's?"   Why don't architects include such courses in their plans?

[Joe Hancock]

Rich,

Even cool ideas cost money, no?

Joe

[Frank Pont]

Rich,

I fully agree with you, the Olaf course is a lot of fun, I play it at least twice every time I'm at Cruden.

There are more golf clubs with such a setup. Knokke in Belgium (Colt) also has a championship and a small course. What you find is that most of the older members prefer to play the small course.

I am currently building a small course hole by hole at Eindhoven (Colt) in addition to the main course. Idea is to have a place to practice for the top players, a place to play when you are short on time but also for the older members who have trouble with 9 full holes. Key is to have the same type of greens, bunkers and other characteristics as the main course, and be able to practice all the key short shots (80 m inwards).

[ed_getka]

I'll have to give St Olafs a whirl the next time I go to Cruden Bay.

Sounds like a cool project Frank. How much have you done so far, and what have the members thought of it?

[Tom_Doak]

Rich:  I happened to walk across the first couple of holes on St. Olaf's this afternoon.  That little second hole looked terrific.

I agree with you it's a great facility for a club to have.  But here's why few have it:

1.  It takes up room that might be used for the "practice facility".  Personally I would much rather have the little nine holes, but there are way too many range rats in modern golf, especially in the US.  At Cruden Bay, the St. Olaf course pushes the "new, improved" practice range into close proximity with the 18th hole requiring O.B. and fencing and taking a big toll on the finishing hole.  If you give the range as much attention as people want it to have in this day and age, there's seldom room for a course like St. Olaf, or it would be well away from the clubhouse.

2.  Courses like this never seem to pay for themselves.  Eighty percent of people dismiss them as "inferior" and never go out there, and the other 20% don't play it enough (at lesser green fees) to make it a profitable part of the business plan.  Of course, a forward-thinking club or a forward-thinking municipality (I'm thinking of Gullane #3) would realize the shorter course promotes the game for juniors and women while keeping the big course free from traffic jams ... but not many people in golf seem to think past the year's bottom line.

3.  Not many clubs have enough acreage to make it work.  If a golf developer has 300 acres to start with, he may well have to give 50-75 acres for nature conservancy of some sort in order to get the permits to build his big course, and the little course goes out the window.

I'm on your side here; I'm just telling you why more of these courses don't exist.  I played North Berwick off the boxes yesterday at about 6000 yards and it was MUCH more fun than grinding around a bigger course.

[wsmorrison]

Manor Country Club (former home course of Craig Disher) has a full-size 18-hole golf course (Flynn and Collis) and a Short Course, the Harry Pitt (Flynn).  The holes add up to 1786 yards, par 30.  The shortest hole is 135 and the longest 291.  It was intended for ladies and juniors. The main course surrounds the short course.

[RJ_Daley]

Medinah has its "ladies" course that is still essentially a Bendelow layout.  I'm not sure if men can go out there and bat it around.  But, it would be a neat little course to go out with say 5-6 clubs.  

The best example or potential of this sort of "little" course is the "little 9" at Southern Pines.  I haven't been back there for a number of years.  But, I did examine it closely back when, and I think it screams out for the Elks club to do something to remodel and utilize it for exactly these fun, quick, clever little rounds.  I can't believe the powers that be and some ambitious up and comer archie hasn't struck a deal to make this a showpiece resto-remodel effort to showcase good design-construction work.

[Bob_Huntley]

Rich,

I have advocated a St. Olafs at MPCC. We have the land but I am afraid the anti-golf enviromental wackos here in California would see it stillborn.

Bob

[ForkaB]

Thanks, all for the comments.

Joe

Yes it would cost money, but you have to spend money to make money.  Also, I caught the end of "Field of Dreams" last night after coming back from Dornoch.  Build a St. Olaf's, and maybe they will come....

ed

Bring your hickories!

Frank

Great news about your work at Eindhoven.  Exactly what needs to be done and for the reasons you state.

Tom

Are you stalking me?  I play North Berwick last Sunday, you play it a few days later.  I'm in Cruden Bay mid-week, you get there on the weekend.  I bet you're on your way to Dornoch right now!  I'm not telling you where I am today....

More seriously....I don't think you can blame St. Olaf's for that abomination of a driving range at Cruden Bay.  The former has been there for over 100 years and the latter is a recent addition, and a shame.  The 18th hole is just average as it is, and really doesn't need the eye pollution.  Interestingly, did you note that there is an old fashioned practice area within the confines of St. Olaf's?  Just a couple of "holes" with rows of 50 yard stakes.  As Frank says above, great for practicing the 80 yard in shots that separate the men from the boys.

Agree with you re: North Berwick.  Either I'm getting short or the courses over here are playing very long in the cold and with the wet spring turf and strong spring breezes. I can't imagine trying to get around a 7400 yards course in these conditions.  Thank god for the North Berwicks and Cruden Bays and Dornochs of the world.

Wayne and RJ

Thanks for the examples.  Somehow I just knew that Flynn and Bendie would have thought of this before!

Bob

Keep lobbying the MPCC Board!  It could be the piece de resistance to one of the great golfing clubs of the world.

[Eric Franzen]

As Tom mentions a course like this is a great way to offer the juniors more opportunities for spontaneous play, which surely will increase their interest in the game.

Here in Sweden it is quite common to build three stretches of nine holes and rotate them on a daily or weekly basis between the 18 hole and nine hole course.

I think that the model discussed in this thread is superior since it allows the architect to design the nine holes with a clear purpose in mind.

[ForkaB]

Good points, Eric

Dornoch used to have its "St. Olaf's" called the Struie, which was 9 holes of largely untouched Old Tom Morris.  It served the purposes of:  relief to the big course; a place for juniors and seniors to get in a game of golf; and a place where better players could hone their skills.  About 15-20 years ago they extended it to 18 holes and after 3-4 subsequent remodelings they now have an OK 6200+ yard "second" course,which is a mishmash of styles and very difficult.  It gets more play and brings in more income than the old Struie, but it is no longer a place for beginners or the casual player.

What they could do is add another 9--5 "extra" holes already exist as the result of the remodelings and they own ample additional land.  Have 3 nines, one "Championship" (3600 yards), one quirky (3000 yards) and one gentle (2500 yards).  Mix and match, but play the 1st two as an 18 most days.  Sorta like your Swedish model.  I think it would work and have proposed it to the powers that be, but they have eyes but cannot see........

[wsmorrison]

"What they could do is add another 9--5 "extra" holes already exist as the result of the remodelings and they own ample additional land.  Have 3 nines, one "Championship" (3600 yards), one quirky (3000 yards) and one gentle (2500 yards).  Mix and match, but play the 1st two as an 18 most days."  

Rich,

Flynn did something similar to this at Huntingdon Valley.  There are three nines there (A,B, and C or Toomey, Flynn and Centennial) each successively harder than the previous.  Yet this has always been a club of championship golfers and the A and B nines were to be used for the ladies championships.  The A tees were  up a bit more than the men's.  The B tees were much closer to the men's and played a few strokes harder than the A for the women.  The C nine is the hardest nine holes in the district in terms of rating and slope and you know there's a lot of notable competition for difficult nines in the Philadelphia district.

The A and B nines are still challenging today.  Bob Crosby marvelled at all the uneven lies and shot demands created.  Precise ball striking is demanded--sometimes you hit a fade of a draw lie and vice versa.  There's a lot of luck in the lies in the fairway (like excellent links courses) and it really stood out to Bob who is used to level lies in the fairways in his district (Atlanta).  The C nine was dormant for 50 years and resurrected by Linc Roden and friends.  Environmental constraints and a driving range made a 100% restoration impossible but it is a wonderful nine holes and a great challenge.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Rich, I love the concept and think of the Cliffs course at Olympic Club as one. I also think of that type of course as a place to play with your child or wife/gf or as an enjoyable warmup 9 before playing the main course. Bob, I wish MPCC had sliped that in when the Shore was renovated.

[wsmorrison]

While the West Course at Merion was intended to be a second championship 18-hole course when it was built (1913), in fact the decision to play the 1916 Amateur match play on the East wasn't made to shortly before the start of the tournament, the West Course today is a perfect compliment to the East.  It is 5989 yards long but has a lot of charm, quirk, demand and FUN.  Some of the holes on the West (4, 5, 11, 12 and 15) would be wonderful additions to any course in the country.  It gets a lot of play by juniors, ladies, seniors and second rounds of the day.  It is a mile or so away from the East Course but it is an ideal second course.

[Dan Moore]

The short Annesley Course at Royal County Down was a perfect arrival day place to play after flying all night.  While quite a bit shorter than the main course, it got into some serious dunes north of the main course and was a great way to work out the kinks and get some familiarity with the links terrain.  Based on a routing from 1892 I have seen, its likely at least a few of the holes date back to the original Tom Morris routing.  

Yesterday my son and I headed to the Winnetka Muni (Chicago area) with the intent of playing the Langford 9 hole par 3 course they have.  It was so crowded with kids we opted instead to play the regular course which was nearly empty.   The concept of a short course for beginners and kids seems to be alive and well in Winnetka.  

[Jason Topp]

At the municipal course I used to play, there is 27 holes of 7,000 yard golf and then a decent 9 hole par 32 course.  The shorter course is very busy and provides a place for juniors and beginners to play in a less threatening and more enjoyable environment.  It also greatly reduces the number of very slow players on the big course.

In our area, there are 3-4 public courses that have this set up and the short courses seem very busy.  If one wants to grow participation in the game, I think more of these type of courses would more successfully accomplish that goal than more regular courses.

[Stan Dodd]

Rich,
I too have spent some time on the St. Olafs.  It is good practice and there are some very good holes.  I also think that it has some of the best land that could be incorporated into the big course.
In thinking about the changes at Cruden I think some of it could be done with the the following:  
#1 and # 2 on big course stay same, then play #6 on St. Olafs ( Par four with drive over hill and green site on the side of  hill), then #7 St. Olafs ( short par three, could be stretched abit).  Then return to play #, 3, 4, 5 6 , 7, on the big course.  Front 9 par 35.
Then play big course 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, then play from 15 tee to 16 green as a short par 4 and finish with a long par 5 from 17 tee to 18 green.  Back 9 Par 37.
Could be done without a lot of earth moving.

[ForkaB]

Stan

Interesting thoughts.  7 at St. O IS a great hole!

I'm on record as saying that CB could be a truly great golf course if they turned 8-16 into a "relief" course (with a really cool relief clubhouse on the medal tee of the 9th....) and used St. Olaf's (and other bits of available land) to build 9-10 new holes (probably eliminating the current 18th, and improving the 2nd), but......

.....having played St. Olaf's, I'm not now so sure.  Having a great relief course and a nearly great "big" course might be a better result than having a great "big" course and an average relief course (which is all that the land from 8-16 could offer).

[Stan Dodd]

St. Olafs  6 the par four is a great hole and I really like the green setting for #7 par three with the hill behind, then you can just have a short walk to the #3 tee on the big course.

[ForkaB]

Sorry Mr. Dodd.  Please don't tell my parents that I didn't properly read your message!  Yes, #6 is the great par 4. (#8 ain't chopped liver either!).

I know well the seamless transition from #7 (St. Olaf's) to the tee at #3 on the big course, as we had wind behind when we played #7, and my wife's tee shot ended up on the latter!

[Tom Huckaby]

Hmmmm.... at just over 5000 yards, par 64 and only NINE HOLES, it's pretty tough to call that "short."

 

Sorry, just being a prick.

I love sporty shorty 9-holers and really wish we had more of them.  There sure is a place for interesting golf that can be done in an hour or less... We have one near us in San Jose, and in fact is described in text form under My Home Course, by yours truly.  It is a fun place.

Question though:  how do you all feel about these as stand-alone courses, like the beloved Rancho del Pueblo?  Do they work as such, either here (US) or there (Scotland)?

I absolutely concur that these little 9-holers are a valuable addition to any club with a great full-sized course.  Think Olympic Club and it's Cliffs par-three.  Imagine that with a few par fours thrown into the mix....

I think they do work as stand-alone courses, but a businessman I am not.  Are they viable?

TH

[Paul_Turner]

Moor Park GC (near London) was a pioneer of this type of complex but taking it one step further:

High-6700 yds
West-5800 yds
East- 4600yds (now Rickmansworth Muni)

It's a huge complex with no real practice facility. (Other than taking a par 4 hole on the West, converting it to a par 3 and using the fairway as a small practice area-to the detriment of the hole).

No way this would happen today. We'd have 36 championship holes + a fancy driving range.

[Frank Pont]

I think the St.Olaf course is great on its own as it is now.

Mixing it with the main course has two problems:

1. The current routing of the main course of Cruden is very very good. I believe it was Tom Doak who said the best thing of the routing is that it is the same way you would walk the cprperty if you weren't playing golf but just were a pedestrian

2. The scale of the St. Olaf course is very different from the main course. Green, tees, bunkers and fairways are literally a size smaller than on the main course. To make them larger would not be good, to leave them as they are and include them in the main course would look strange.

I personally quite like the back nine of Cruden (maybe because I tend to score better on it....). Especially hole 9 and to a lesser extent hole 10, although offering beautifull vistas, are not very good (both should be improved and made more strategic). But the stretch 13-17 in my view is both very good and very memorable.

Funny enough hole 18 (pre driving range + nets) was one of Simpson's own favorites. Maybe find a way to get rid of the nets and hide the driving range in another way....

[Joe Hancock]

Rich,

I think it's a wonderful idea. I'm just sure that it doesn't get implemented at private facilites very often because it is another area to maintain, and that costs money.

But, if you're going to build one of these...let's get going!

Joe

[Ross Cooper]

Many a fine golfer has been raised playing golf on the St. Olafs golf course at Cruden Bay! Indeed many members will not play the short course because it is too difficult for them.....

Having previously read on this board about the St Olaf's being a waste of space in the middle of Cruden Bay - I think that those who take the time to play/walk it will learn differently.

Maybe St. Olafs is the true hidden gem at CB (if only it had the views eh..)

Tom - disappointed that I did not get the chance to speak to you on your visit - but delighted that you took the time to come up to CB.

Frank - I have your letter re the course changes and will reply to it personally.  

I am amazed at the amount of flack which the 18th at Cruden Bay gets. Granted the driving range detracts from the view - but  playability wise it is one of the most strategic holes on the course. I would have possibly agreed before the new tee went in , but now a drive must be held up the left to avoid the burn and subtle contouring on the green make it very rewarding for a well played approach.

RC