Which tees would you play at Augusta?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

The answer to the question as to what tees to play depends upon the following question.

Do you want to hit the same shots into those greens that you've witnessed for the past 50 years on TV, by playing from the Members tees, or do you want to play the Masters tees and have to hit a wedge or more as your THIRD shot into most of the par 4's ?

If you hit a decent ball, do you want to be able to go for the par 5 greens in two, especially # 13 & # 15, or do you want that option removed ?

Do you want to connect with history, or do you want to struggle and disconnect from what you've seen for the last 50 years ?

P.S.  Bryan, the caddies may be vastlly overrated as readers
       of greens.   Don't believe everything you read.
       The putts Couples missed had nothing to do with the
       reads, they were almost all fairlly straight putts.  Had
       he made his birdie putt on # 14, the outcome might have
       been different.

[PThomas]

not the championship tees

and i hope I am not playing behind a group that is playing them without the talent to be back there, cause then I'll be waiting too much as they slong their way around

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

Do you REALLY want to go right back to square one now after 7 pages?

What the hell, I have nothing better to do this morning.  Obviously you don't either.  

Your assessment works FOR YOU.  Here's how I differ:


Do you want to hit the same shots into those greens that you've witnessed for the past 50 years on TV, by playing from the Members tees, or do you want to play the Masters tees and have to hit a wedge or more as your THIRD shot into most of the par 4's ?


I'd love to be able to hit the same sorts of shots into greens that the pros do, but I also want to face the same tee shot challenges.  For this ONE TIME ONLY, the latter trumps the former.  I want the real challenge - not a bike with training wheels.  Oh I know, I'll get plenty of challenge conceptually from the members' tees - it just won't be THE SAME CHALLENEGE.  And since the idea FOR THIS ONE ROUND ONLY is to truly walk in the footsteps of the greats, why dilute that with the head start?

If you hit a decent ball, do you want to be able to go for the par 5 greens in two, especially # 13 & # 15, or do you want that option removed ?

I figure I'm going to get that chance when I play the members' tees - remembering all the while that it will be diluted.  If it's into the wind, do you move up on 16 Cypress so you have a realistic chance to make the green?  Of course not.  Same principle here.  Tough beans if you can't make it - this reveals one's limitations, but remains the true test, the purpose of the exercise.


Do you want to connect with history, or do you want to struggle and disconnect from what you've seen for the last 50 years ?

I want to do both - so I want to play the 1986 tees with 1986 equipment.  It seems that can't be done.  So I will play the 2006 tees with 2006 equipment - and struggle I will, for sure... but I can't see that putting training wheels on gives any connection to history.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

TH

ps to Paul - as you see this debate raged all last week as you were playing great CA courses.  The assumption in this wild fantasy hypo is that a) you're allowed to play the tips (which you really aren't and b) your host wants you to do so and c) it's an empty course, so slow play issues don't count.

[David Ober]

But you're WRONG, Tom. Don't you understand that?!  

Sorry, Mucci. Couldn't resist.  

[Tom Huckaby]

David - you are learning well from the master.  And such surely isn't me.

 

[PThomas]

Huck - thanks for clarifying

if my host wanted me to, I guess I would have to out of respect for him....

but my longest tee shots in calm conditions go 270 max, so if up to me I'd still pick the up tees so I could have a chance to hit 15 in two , for ex

best solution:  I'm there for at least two rounds and can play both!

[Tom Huckaby]

Paul - the obvious solution is to have multiple rounds and play one from the tips.  But for the sake of the debate here, they've limited it to ONE ROUND ONLY.  That does make the choice harder.  I've punted by saying in that scenario I'd go ahead and play the members' tees, primarily just to go with the flow and not be a prick... and although I have zero doubt it would be fantastic, great fun... I'd come home always wondering what might have been.

Think if the back tee on #16 on the great course you played a few days ago was closed, and you had to play from over on the isthmus... still a fun shot, not the real thing.  That's the sorta regret I am referring to.

And re your host "wanting you to" play the tips, bad choice of words by me.  Of course one does what one's host says... what I meant by that was he's OK with it - not so much telling you to, but allowing it.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Since 6100 yards has been bandied about, the following might be insightful.  Yardages from the current Augusta National Golf Club scorecard (Members Tees/Masters Tees/Handicap Rating):

1     365  455  9
2     515  575  1
3     340  350 13
4     170  240 15
5     400  455  5
6     165  180 17
7     330  450 11
8     480  570  3
9     395  460  7
Out 3160 3735

10   450  495  6
11   400  505  8
12   145  155 16
13   455  510  4
14   380  440 12
15   475  530  2
16   145  170 18
17   370  440 14
18   385  465  4
In   3205 3710

Total 6365  7445

Mike

[Tom Zeni]

Member tee's vs Tourament tees. Since I wouldn't have any fun at 7400+ yds, and by using those tees, my shots would be totally out of sync of where today's players are landing the ball - and going for the green, I'd be thrilled to play the member tees.

[PThomas]

thanks Bogey

Huck - if up to me and I'm not offending my host, I'm playing up

look at 15, 475 from there...reachable if I hit a good drive, which would give me the thrill of possibly reaching it in 2

but from the back at 530, even if I bust a 270 yarder, I'm left with 260, which means I'm laying up for sure

and on  17 so I'd have a better chance at birdie there which would give me the chance to say "MAYBE...YES SIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick:

Do you REALLY want to go right back to square one now after 7 pages?

What the hell, I have nothing better to do this morning.  Obviously you don't either.  

Your assessment works FOR YOU.  Here's how I differ:


Do you want to hit the same shots into those greens that you've witnessed for the past 50 years on TV, by playing from the Members tees, or do you want to play the Masters tees and have to hit a wedge or more as your THIRD shot into most of the par 4's ?


I'd love to be able to hit the same sorts of shots into greens that the pros do, but I also want to face the same tee shot challenges.  For this ONE TIME ONLY, the latter trumps the former.  I want the real challenge - not a bike with training wheels.  Oh I know, I'll get plenty of challenge conceptually from the members' tees - it just won't be THE SAME CHALLENEGE.  

And since the idea FOR THIS ONE ROUND ONLY is to truly walk in the footsteps of the greats, why dilute that with the head start?

The greats never played the golf course from back there.
Hogan Sarazen, Snead, Nelson, Player, Palmer, Nickaluas and many many more NEVER played today's golf course.

I believe that I could convince you to play the Members tees.
I'd drive you down to the back of the 18th tee.
I think that view would convince you to abandon your quest.
You'd realize that it's incredibly narrow, and incredibly long just to reach the turn in the dogleg.  Longer then you are capable of driving, and, even if you hit a drive down the middle, you'd be in the steeper part of the slope, unable to see the green.  You would be deprived of hitting an approach over the yawning bunker, into the green.

You would end your round full of regret.

I'm only trying to save you from yourself, just as I did for TEPaul in the Denver airport.[/color]

If you hit a decent ball, do you want to be able to go for the par 5 greens in two, especially # 13 & # 15, or do you want that option removed ?

I figure I'm going to get that chance when I play the members' tees - remembering all the while that it will be diluted.  

That's only because you've put yourself in that mindset.
Machismo/ego are weighting your decision.[/color]

If it's into the wind, do you move up on 16 Cypress so you have a realistic chance to make the green?  Of course not.  Same principle here.  

No, it's not the same principle.
Cypress is a par 3.   Should the wind be in your face you can merely aim to the left.   But, if the tee at Cypress was a 240 carry and the wind in your face, how long before your round ends on that tee, 6 balls 9 balls, some more balls borrowed from equally dense playing companions ?[/color]

Tough beans if you can't make it - this reveals one's limitations, but remains the true test, the purpose of the exercise.

Discretion is the better part of valor[/color]


Do you want to connect with history, or do you want to struggle and disconnect from what you've seen for the last 50 years ?

I want to do both - so I want to play the 1986 tees with 1986 equipment.  It seems that can't be done.  So I will play the 2005 tees with 2005 equipment - and struggle I will, for sure... but I can't see that putting training wheels on gives any connection to history.

Why do you feel the golf course from the Members tees is terribly inferior ?

At 6,345 it presents a good challenge and a chance to connect with history, why pass on that opportunity ?

From the Masters tees, after a good drive on # 1, you'd probably be faced with a blind second shot.  Why play a golf course that doesn't resemble anything you've seen ?

7,400+ with narrow fairways and unforgiving features isn't what you'll want to remember as you drive out of the club, you'd much rather remember hitting the same shot into # 13 that Nicklaus did in 1986, or to succeed on # 15 from where Seve failed.  The connection to history is from the Members tees.  There is nothing to connect to, from the tips, for you.[/color]

Different strokes for different folks.

I understand that.
But, if you play the Masters tees, after your round, you'll be mumbling what TEPaul was mumbling as he wandered, aimlessly and desperately through the Denver Airport.[/color]
 

David Ober,

You're right, Tom is wrong.
I'm glad we agree on that.

[Tom Huckaby]

But Paul, do so and it will always have the asterisk... as would playing 16 from the isthmus....

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

OK, I think we've gone as far as we can go.  This is absolutely NOT about ego or machismo - how many different times, and in different ways, can I tell you I KNOW I'D GET MY ASS KICKED FROM THE TIPS - THAT WOULD BE PART OF THE FUN!

See, here's our basic disconnect - which colors oh so many discussions we have on here....

I don't play golf for a score alone.  You do.  It's likely because you've made lots of great scores, see a reality where such is possible no matter what.  Such reality is removed from the new tips at Augusta, so you don't see the point of playing them.  Well let me clue you in:  the reality doesn't matter to me!  I can shoot 100 from the members' tees just as well!  I hope I wouldn't, but I believe all it would take is a bad day with the wedges and putter.  And I have LOTS of those.

So we're talking living out a fantasy - not trying to achieve a good score, or replicate approach shots.

THE WHOLE POINT OF DOING IT IS TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN ON THE BACK AT 18... TO BE FACED WITH A BLIND APPROACH ON 1... to laugh at one's limitations!

My fantasy doesn't come with training wheels.  

You don't do fantasies, so I can't expect you to understand this.

TH

[John_Cullum]

Didn't Jeff Knox shot 73 in Saturdays round as amarker for Furyk?

Jeff won the State Am about 4 years ago, and I think he has won some other GSGA championships, but he doesn't win them all. He was low amateur in the Ga open at Settindown Creek as I recall, that was about three years ago. Jeff is a +2.5 handicap. David sounds like he could keep up with Jeff, so I'm betting on him.

I am confident Jeff regularly shoots in the 70's from the Masters tees, and I expect he occasionally breaks par. Next time I see Jeff, I'll ask him.

[John_Cullum]

Caveat:  Jeff Knox is the "designated putter" for the Masters Tournament Competitions Committee. He putts at each of the proposed hole locations to check them for "fairness." (How much would Huckaby give for that job?) So maybe Jeff has the local knowledge thing going for him.

[PThomas]

Patrick:

I KNOW I'D GET MY ASS KICKED FROM THE TIPS - THAT WOULD BE PART OF THE FUN!

here's where you and I are different my friend....I would take no pleasure out of slogging around from back there!

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tom Huckaby,

Very few of my fantasies have anything to do with golf.

Trust me, you wouldn't have fun from the tips.

You should also know the following.

The first time I played ANGC I was on the range and surprised myself because the ball felt great on the clubface.

We then went to the first tee there were three groups on the first tee, getting ready to begin the day. When it was our turn to play I turned to my caddy and asked,
"what are those tees back there ?"  
he replied, "Those are the Masters tees"  
I said, "What are these"  
He said, " These are the Members tees"  
So, I said, "Well, I'm not a member, I can't play from these tees, let's go back there"
Which we did.
Now, the groups waiting at the Members tees all had to move back, out of the way.  
As I was getting ready to hit my tee shot, my caddy said to me.  
"Mr Mucci, you take a deep breath before you hit this ball'  To which I said,
"Don't worry, I've been waiting to hit this ball all of my life", and proceeded to rip a pretty good drive.

On a more recent trip I knew that becauase my game had changed and the course lengthened, that the tips were out of my league.  Even if my game hadn't changed, the tips would  now be out of my league.

And, it's not just the added length, it's the narrowness.
The tree planting has altered the course considerably, impacting tee shots dramatically

Look at # 11.
505 yards, blind off the tee, dogleg right, to a fairway 26 yards wide with dense trees on both sides.

And that's just the begining.
To a green with water to the left and rear, from a fairway that slopes down and away from you.
A green that Hogan is quoted as saying, if his ball is ever on that green, you know that he's missed the shot.

Since we have some common ground due to our experiences at Sand Hills.
Would you play Sand Hills from 7,445, with narrow fairways lined with trees ?

Listen to olde uncle Pat on this one, you'll have a better time.
And noone will call you a sissy.


John Cullum,

Aren't saturday's and sunday's hole locations pretty much the same every year ?

[Tom Huckaby]

Paul:

Nor do I, normally.  Did you not notice who was giving Benham massive crap when he made us play the tips the other day?  And that was a course that we obviously could handle.

This is Augusta, not Callippe Preserve.  This is living out one's Masters' fantasies, not playing a round of golf to try and achieve a score.

My Masters fantasies don't start in the fairway, nor do they come with training wheels.  I also don't want asterisks on the stories to tell my Dad and the boys back home.

And the kicker is this:  I really do believe a large part of the whole point of doing it would be to see just how bad my ass gets kicked, in this Masters fantasy, just for this one round.

Then once the point is made, I get myself back to tees where I have a chance to achieve some success, and achieve that very different type of fun that way.

To me this all seems quite normal.  This isn't any golf course... this is acting out a Masters fantasy.

TH

[John_Cullum]

Pat

They mix the locations up a little. Even without much change, it is still good to check the hole when a committee gets really agressive. Especially on a spot like front left on 7, or on the back right on 16.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

You got to play them once... why deny me the same Quixotic quest?

But I get what you're saying.  The course has been changed so much that it's just so hard from way back that it's absolutely beyond the pale, no chance for any sort of success, just getting beat on all day.

Well you know what?  That happens to me at lots of courses.  I'm used to it.

But most importantly, I can't change what the course has become - and moving up to tees to try and replicate some past Masters just gives me no satisfaction.

But here's the main kicker:

They don't play the Masters at Sand Hills.

TH

[Mike Benham]

Did you not notice who was giving Benham massive crap when he made us play the tips the other day?  

This is living out one's ... fantasies ...

Whoa, never a good thing when you name appears in another man's fantasy ...

[Tom Huckaby]

Now I know why Barry Bonds hates all reporters.

 

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tom Huckaby,

I have no doubt that you would have joined me that day.

I understand your quest, I'm just trying to make your visit to ANGC an enjoyable and memorable one, not a tedious disappointment.

You mean you didn't get your invitation to the Sand Hills Masters ?

[Tim Pitner]

Since this thread refuses to die, I'll weigh back in.  I think Mr. Mucci is right--if the choice is between the Masters and the Members tees (and that's the only choice presently available), all but the very lowest handicaps should play the Members tees.  7400 yards, with some uphill shots, would play extremely long.  I've never played any course that long, even in the thin air of Colorado.  The television shot from behind the Masters #18 tee frightens me.  I'd be so freaked out by the narrow chute, I'd probably have about a one in four chance of driving the ball through the chute, never mind where it goes after that.  It wouldn't be a very enjoyable day for most.

I still believe there ought to be a set of tees between 6300 and 7400 yards (and apparently, based on an earlier post, some members agree).  At my level, I'm sure 6300 yards would be plenty enough of a challenge, but it would be fun to take it back to 6700-6800 yards.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tim Pitner,

There are but two foot pads that hold two sets of tees, the Members tees and the Masters tees, with nothing in between.

I like that tradition.

If this were a fantasy round, I could see playing some holes from the back of the Members tees and some holes from the front to mid portion of the Masters tees.

I think that's the combination you're looking for.