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Jim Nugent

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #150 on: April 13, 2006, 01:36:18 PM »
Conditions were NOT mild Friday at Augusta, according to the following article in GolfWeek.  They were extremely difficult...

Wind burn --
Augusta's swirling winds wreaked havoc Friday
 
AUGUSTA, Ga. – We have Santa Ana winds, Hawaiian trade winds, Chinook winds and "The Winds of War." One of golf's greatest poets was the late Herbert Warren Wind.

But there is nothing quite like the winds of Augusta National Golf Club. They are sometimes civil, but very often fiercely temperamental. On Day 2 of the 70th Masters, the tips of the tallest pines were dancing eloquently as strong winds swirled and tangoed across the hollows of golf's most hallowed playing field.

Players spent the day first tossing grass in the air, guessing, swinging, then watching in disbelief and throwing their hands in the air. The most popular play at the 505-yard, water-guarded 11th became the drop. It was that kind of a crazed day. It's not often World No. 2 Vijay Singh makes three double bogeys and securely terms a 2-over 74 "a pretty good round."

But he was right. It was a good score. For the second day at the bulked up National, soon to be named in the Balco investigation, only three players broke 70.

Davis Love III and Adam Scott stood in the fairway at the 495-yard 10th hole, figured the wind was into their faces, then proceeded – both of them – to knock approach shots over the green. Both made double bogeys. Unbeknownst to them, the wind had turned and was at their backs – a better position from which to stab them.

Love, who is playing in his 17th Masters, was asked if the learning curve ever ceases at the vaunted National.

"No," he said.

As Love stepped to the tee at 11, which points in the same direction as 10, the wind was in his face once again. The short walk to the 12th tee brought another change: He watched others hit tee shots with a right-to-left wind. By the time he drew his short iron back, the wind had shifted and was blowing left to right.

Love laughed. What else can one do? "You're always guessing," he said.

Added Tiger Woods, who shot 71 to move to 1 under, five shots off Chad Campbell's leading pace, "You make a good swing, and it (the wind) can switch in a heartbeat."

Add all the yardage you want to Augusta National, and narrow the fairways to slender ribbons, but unless the wind blows, it doesn't make a huge difference. Aye, but there's the rub. Inevitably at Augusta's grand old dame, the wind does whistle, and when the props start spinning, the place can be truly mystifying.

Rocco Mediate watched senior Raymond Floyd hit a 5-iron at the par-3 fourth, which, for the day, was playing mercifully at 185 yards (down from its new 240). So Mediate pulled out a 6-iron, hit a solid shot, and watched his ball fall 20 yards short, in a bunker.
Better there than long and in the bushes, which just as easily could have been the case given the whims of the winds.

"You can't get mad," Mediate shrugged. "That's just how it is."

It's obvious a recipe of course lengthening, rare firm and fast conditions (which could change with Saturday's expected thunderstorms) and Day 2 winds produced a golden opportunity for medium hitters to compete. Players such as Larry Mize and Ben Crenshaw turned back the clock by making the cut. Floyd, who is 63, did not, but shot 73, and Charles Coody, 67, shot 74. Only once since 1994 had Coody, the 1971 Masters champion, played better here. "

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #151 on: April 13, 2006, 01:59:31 PM »
Well, Mucci?????  ;D

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #152 on: April 13, 2006, 02:38:59 PM »
Patrick,

What do you think, say, a 3-4 handicapper would shoot at August from the members' tees at around 6300 yards in the time right before the Masters? Say someone who has never played the course before?

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #153 on: April 13, 2006, 03:05:08 PM »
This thread prompted me to look up both David Ober and Patrick Mucci.  It appears that you both are very accomplished amateur players--congratulations, well done.  But, I couldn't care less what either of you would shoot at Augusta, from any tees.  


David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #154 on: April 13, 2006, 03:06:20 PM »
This thread prompted me to look up both David Ober and Patrick Mucci.  It appears that you both are very accomplished amateur players--congratulations, well done.  But, I couldn't care less what either of you would shoot at Augusta, from any tees.  



Then it's probably not wise for you to visit this thread any longer!!  ;D

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #155 on: April 13, 2006, 03:07:48 PM »
I have a feeling I'm not alone; perhaps it is you who shouldn't perpetuate this thread any longer. ;)

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #156 on: April 13, 2006, 03:13:04 PM »
I have a feeling I'm not alone; perhaps it is you who shouldn't perpetuate this thread any longer. ;)

Hey, you obviously cared enough about it to Google both of us!  ;)

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #157 on: April 13, 2006, 03:17:27 PM »
True enough, if it's notoriety you seek, you've accomplished that.  No, really, I don't particularly care what you do--you can argue with Mr. Mucci forever (which will result if you persist).  But, speculating about what you'd shoot is rather pointless, isn't it?  Debating about what you'd shoot seems even more so.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #158 on: April 13, 2006, 03:20:57 PM »
True enough, if it's notoriety you seek, you've accomplished that.  No, really, I don't particularly care what you do--you can argue with Mr. Mucci forever (which will result if you persist).  But, speculating about what you'd shoot is rather pointless, isn't it?  Debating about what you'd shoot seems even more so.

You're right, of course, but this has now taken a new tack. Personally, I'm done with the "I could shoot this or that" stuff. I am, though, interested in why Mr. Mucci's views of Augusta in non-Masters times seem to be so different than those I've heard from others whose credentials are equal to or greater than his.

Jordan Wall

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #159 on: April 13, 2006, 03:26:29 PM »
You're right, of course, but this has now taken a new tack. Personally, I'm done with the "I could shoot this or that" stuff. I am, though, interested in why Mr. Mucci's views of Augusta in non-Masters times seem to be so different than those I've heard from others whose credentials are equal to or greater than his.

Mucci's played the course.

And also, he is very smart, more so then I think you give him credit for.  I have had experience with debating against him...

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #160 on: April 13, 2006, 03:28:50 PM »
You're right, of course, but this has now taken a new tack. Personally, I'm done with the "I could shoot this or that" stuff. I am, though, interested in why Mr. Mucci's views of Augusta in non-Masters times seem to be so different than those I've heard from others whose credentials are equal to or greater than his.

Mucci's played the course.

And also, he is very smart, more so then I think you give him credit for.  I have had experience with debating against him...

I don't hang out with people who aren't smart. And if I ever use anyone as a golf refererence on here, then I wouldn't use him unless the guy knows his sh*t.

Mucci certainly isn't the only guy out there who knows a thing or two about Augusta.

I'm particularly interested in his take on what he thinks a 3-4 handicapper would shoot from the members' tees...

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #161 on: April 13, 2006, 03:29:10 PM »
My friend Patrick is a VERY fine debater, and a very shrewd man.

Smart?

I can't go THAT far.

 ;)

Glenn Spencer

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #162 on: April 13, 2006, 03:47:04 PM »


Is Patrick smart enough to predict what is inside of David Ober? How he responds to a challenge on the golf course? How good a golfer he is from 3000 miles away? What the weather will be like when David tees it up at Augusta? Is he smart enough to know that Ober doesn't putt fast greens well? If Ober hits a timely straight drive on 11 and 18, I don't see what is to stop him from having a great round if he is playing well. I checked his scores 80-76-71 in the SCGA mid-am and that would lend me to believe that when Ober is on, he is on, that or he figures out a way to shoot a good score on a tough golf course!! The golf course is in perfect shape and if a player like Ober finds it on the right day(something even Patrick Mucci can't control) I don't see why he couldn't shoot 68. I bet he hits the ball as far as Olazabal and he had it 7 under through what 15? I have seen a man with a hack swing at the age of 43, have it 4 under on NCR from the back(only tees he plays) through 13 holes. He is a 4 handicap and that place is rated at about 75. The wind was up and everything else. Anything can happen. I bet Mucci would bet against Kevin Marsh shooting 30 at the Honors Course under tournament conditions, but he still did it.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #163 on: April 13, 2006, 03:57:29 PM »


Is Patrick smart enough to predict what is inside of David Ober? How he responds to a challenge on the golf course? How good a golfer he is from 3000 miles away? What the weather will be like when David tees it up at Augusta? Is he smart enough to know that Ober doesn't putt fast greens well? If Ober hits a timely straight drive on 11 and 18, I don't see what is to stop him from having a great round if he is playing well. I checked his scores 80-76-71 in the SCGA mid-am and that would lend me to believe that when Ober is on, he is on, that or he figures out a way to shoot a good score on a tough golf course!! The golf course is in perfect shape and if a player like Ober finds it on the right day(something even Patrick Mucci can't control) I don't see why he couldn't shoot 68. I bet he hits the ball as far as Olazabal and he had it 7 under through what 15? I have seen a man with a hack swing at the age of 43, have it 4 under on NCR from the back(only tees he plays) through 13 holes. He is a 4 handicap and that place is rated at about 75. The wind was up and everything else. Anything can happen. I bet Mucci would bet against Kevin Marsh shooting 30 at the Honors Course under tournament conditions, but he still did it.

The SCGA mid-am Monday morning round was BRUTAL. Tom Pernice, Jr. set up the course, and he is a frickin' SADIST!!! LOL!

You wouldn't even make a pitch mark on the greens with a full sand wedge or lob wedge!!! To make it especially difficult for me, the fairways had dew on them so I was having even MORE trouble holding the greens since I have a low ball flight to begin with (think Trevino or Azinger), and the dew makes it difficult to impossible to impart maximum spin on the ball.

I also putted like a "s-word"!!!

I played in a skins game with Pernice on the Sunday immediately before the tournament and he shot 69. I shot 74. The 71 I shot on Monday at Bear Creek would have been within a a couple shots at most of what Pernice or any other solid professional would have shot that day most likely. The course is rated 75.0 and with the consistently tucked pins and firm greens, was probably playing to about a rating of 77.0.

If you had 100 PGA pros play the course that day, at least 20 to 30 of them would not have broken par.

If you haven't played Bear Creek, then you have no idea how good that 71 was in tournament conditions.

John Goodman

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #164 on: April 13, 2006, 04:11:49 PM »
David, I hope there's a way to say this without giving too much offense, but I'm starting to believe I might have to root against you . . .

Glenn Spencer

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #165 on: April 13, 2006, 04:20:59 PM »
John,
 
How is David not supposed to take offense to that? A man gets his dream shot to play Augusta from the back tees and has a bet on it and you are going with the house?

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #166 on: April 13, 2006, 04:22:52 PM »
John, you are not alone.  Perhaps the most appropriate remedy would be to force Mr. Ober and Mr. Mucci to play a round together--let's say 36 holes--with the stipulation that they must talk to one another whenever possible.  Of course, Mr. Ober would play the tippy tips and Mr. Mucci would play whatever tees he damned well pleased.  

John Goodman

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #167 on: April 13, 2006, 04:38:04 PM »
John,
 
How is David not supposed to take offense to that? A man gets his dream shot to play Augusta from the back tees and has a bet on it and you are going with the house?

I'd never pooh pooh a man's dreams.  It's just that some of the posts have gotten a little, how shall I say it, MattWardian.  But I suppose all fine golfers are tourists in the land of humility . . .  :)

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #168 on: April 13, 2006, 05:20:30 PM »

several of the guys who work there have played Augusta. They all told me that the course (when they played it back in the mid-90's), from the Masters tees, was NOT overly difficult. They said it played to a rating of about 74.


Now, again, this was back in the 90's, so it was when the course was playing easier, but that is where I get my opinions about Augusta.

I would probably agree with those opinions.

But, a lot has changed in 10-14 years.

When your friends played it there was virtually no rough.
When your friends played it there were no trees choking the DZ.
When your friends played it it was 500+ yards shorter
When your friends played it the bunkers hadn't been reconfigured, moved or extended and made substantially deeper.

It's dramatically different today.

It's even dramatically different today then 5-7 years ago.

As an example, # 11 is SO RADICALLY different that you'd have to experience it to fully comprehend the changes.

It went from a WIDE DZ to a narrow forested DZ and with the tee back it takes away from some of the roll, throw in the rough and the inability to control the ball from the rough and trees and the water now looms larger then ever.

# 7 and # 17 are radically different.
Even # 14 is different due to tree planting.

What hasn't been addressed with respect to these changes is that they can exponentially affect your score.
It's not like you'll just make a bogey due to them, it's likely you can make a phone number.

Hope this helps.
[/color]



Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #169 on: April 13, 2006, 05:29:34 PM »
John, you are not alone.  Perhaps the most appropriate remedy would be to force Mr. Ober and Mr. Mucci to play a round together--let's say 36 holes--with the stipulation that they must talk to one another whenever possible.  Of course, Mr. Ober would play the tippy tips and Mr. Mucci would play whatever tees he damned well pleased.  


I'd play the tees I felt comfortable with that day.

And, I'll guarantee you that David and I would have an absolutely delightful day of golf and comraderie.
[/color]

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #170 on: April 13, 2006, 05:31:30 PM »

My friend Patrick is a VERY fine debater, and a very shrewd man.

Smart?

I can't go THAT far.

 ;)


Tom,

Did you know that TEPaul was a Master Debater ?
[/color]


Glenn Spencer,

I'll take the Kevin Marsh bet today, tomorrow and into next year.

The race doesn't always go to the swiftest, nor the contest to the strongest, but, that's the way to bet.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 05:34:00 PM by Patrick_Mucci_Jr »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #171 on: April 13, 2006, 05:33:51 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D

I can give no cogent retort to that.

 ;D

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #172 on: April 13, 2006, 09:32:37 PM »
Guys,

I really did not want to jump in on this but I just got back dinner at the club and ran into a friend that played the course this past October 31st.  I only got to speak to him for a minute about the course, but he did state that the greens were ridiculously slow.   He said they told him they were 10-11, but for the first 18 holes he played he had trouble getting the ball to the hole they were so slow!

Take it for whats its worth, this guy is a 13 or 14 handicap and while I didn't ask him what he shot, he did say that the course played very short.

He was more interested in telling me about how he met Hootie and how he met Hootie, ate dinner at the table next to Hootie and Ben Crenshaw and stayed in the pro shop cabin.


Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #173 on: April 13, 2006, 11:28:06 PM »
John,
 
How is David not supposed to take offense to that? A man gets his dream shot to play Augusta from the back tees and has a bet on it and you are going with the house?

I'd never pooh pooh a man's dreams.  It's just that some of the posts have gotten a little, how shall I say it, MattWardian.  But I suppose all fine golfers are tourists in the land of humility . . .  :)

No offense taken. Golf is the one solitary area in my life where I have a little confidence left in me, and I'm not ever going to let it go. I love the game and love competing, and believing in myself helps a TON in competition -- even if that "believing in myself" sometimes gets a little out of hand and crosses the line into arrogance.

For that, I apologize.  :)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 11:30:06 PM by David Ober »

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #174 on: April 14, 2006, 03:34:02 AM »
As another break from the great debate, here is a story by another reporter who won the Monday lottery.  Seems the very difficult greens can be putted by amateurs with good advice from local caddies.

"In caddies we trust
Playing Augusta day after Masters a lesson in just how tough greens are
Apr. 12, 2006. 01:00 AM
DAVE PERKINS

AUGUSTA, Ga.—Here's the first rule for playing Augusta National Golf Club: Always trust the caddies.

Or put it this way: If Fred Couples had putted like a certain Toronto typist did Monday, following the lines and directions of the man on the bag, he would have won the green jacket.

Yours truly won the annual lottery to play the National the morning after the Masters with a handful of other press types. Same Sunday pins, but only (blessedly) a few of the back tees. Granted, it's a hacker having fun and not the grind of a Masters, but on those very same nasty and altogether wonderful putting surfaces, your servant did not three-putt once.

Correct. All two- and one-putt greens. Couldn't believe it myself. All credit to the caddie, a six-year Augusta veteran named Derrick, who earned his $55 fee and its twin, the tip, with a perfect series of reads and lines.

The bad news, for those demanding bottom-line arithmetic, is that even with a hot putter — in this case an original Nicklaus Response that's old enough to vote — the final score of 91-ish has an asterisk, which we'll get to in good time.

The talk among our four caddies was how poorly a number of the contenders had putted, especially in the final round. Not Phil Mickelson, though, who avoided three-jacking Sunday to most deservedly win his second Masters.

As one of our group's caddies said, "I saw a lot of bad strokes, but I saw a lot of worse lines. I could see on TV at home that they were getting some bad advice. I don't know why some of these pros don't hire the local boys when they come here."

It's a very good question. Those guys know every inch of every putt.

First, if you'll indulge more boasting, the highlight — a wedge stuffed to a foot and a half at the final hole for a tap-in par, third par in a row. Thrilling. And it will need to do, possibly forever. After winning, media types may not enter their names for seven years (he said wistfully).

Our group, including my Golfweek pal Jeff Babineau, who was hitting it very well, played the back side first, so it was late in the round when pars arrived on the seventh and eighth holes, and rather easily, thanks. Which got us to the ninth tee, thinking, "Well, Jack Nicklaus ended his Masters career on the ninth hole last year, so if it's good enough for Jack ..."

Then came my drive ripped hard and reasonably far (which seldom happened) but into the left trees (which often happened). A punch out to the walkway at the bottom of the hill left exactly 100 yards straight uphill and a hard pitching wedge disappeared, flagbound, over the ridge, followed seconds later by some yelling from witnesses. Nearly holed it, they reported. What a site to walk up the hill and see. Not a bad way for a hacker to go out anywhere, much less Augusta National.

Needless to say, this was a tremendous experience despite greens as treacherous, challenging and occasionally weird as they appear on TV, only more so. But they roll perfectly and had a lot of grass on them, considering they had been pounded for a week. The ball went just where you sent it. No excuses there.

Without getting too gruesome, this was a day of excellent putts, but too many horrible shots, especially from bunkers; the sand, like sifted flour, was an overmatch for me. First five holes included four bogeys and a double bogey — and that includes a secret mulligan. Lousy tee shots, every time, but as Derrick said, in his own way of cheering up the boss, "Well, you could be at a muni hitting bad shots, too."

Ah, but 15. Poor drive but a good second, followed by a nine-iron to 25 feet and birdie putt that stopped a foot away, but brought on a visit from Mr. Cohiba. (Babineau reached in two and made birdie; we applauded.) Plus, my caddie got out the ball retriever, which I had regripped especially for the occasion, and fished out Tiger Woods' third-round dunker — it has his name and mark on it — plus Darren Clarke's shamrock-marked Titleist from the famous pond.

Parred 16, too, after launching a five-iron from the back tees right at the flag, but a yard short into the bunker. Got up and down, a straight downhill tiddler of five feet started with a quarter-inch of putter backswing. We went up the hill and tried those 50-foot downhill jobs, with our backs to the hole, for "fun" if that's the right word. Caddy advice: Move it one foot — and it went the other 49, and more, by itself.

After a bogey at 17 came three train wrecks we won't talk about, except to say that on the first hole, fearing for the safety of my helmetless playing partners because of back-and-forth skulled wedges, I had to pick up to keep pace. Shameful, sure, but it looks like seven on the scorecard. Next hole was a real seven after another tree experience. Then another bogey, a double, two more bogeys where par putts burned the edge — I felt like Mike Weir briefly — and then those three pars.

The seventh was a perfect example of the caddie's craft, a downhill 20-foot birdie putt that Derrick said to start at least two feet right of where I was looking and stroke it "like a four-footer back home." After it circled slowly down, missing the cup an inch right, the six-foot comebacker went straight up the hill and in.

Five superb hours after the round started, we lunched on the clubhouse terrace, hoping a member might come along and wish to adopt a middle-aged child. None did. Heading out, driving down Magnolia Lane, cued up Sinatra. "I've Got The World On a String" Frank sang and, even though this had been a, uh, working day, I knew what he meant."