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Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #125 on: April 12, 2006, 06:19:56 PM »
Tony - as I say, limiting this to one round does make the choice a lot tougher.

And I will stick with what I said.  I'd go from the members' tees just to avoid prickishness.  But... I do think I'd always wonder what might have been.

And those are sad words.

 ;)

Kevin_Reilly

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #126 on: April 12, 2006, 06:28:14 PM »

If I ever manage to actually WIN a legitimate SoCal event, that would certainly elevate my stature. One thing a lot of people don't understand about California golf is that California is home to 1/6 the population of the ENTIRE COUNTRY. If you can compete here on a legitimate basis, that automatically elevates you to the "nationally competitive" level.

Congrats on your strong finish at the SCGA Mid Am...
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #127 on: April 12, 2006, 06:29:25 PM »
KR - that's what I meant by one doesn't have to look all that hard to see what a damn good player David is.   ;D

scga.org

TH

Sean Leary

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #128 on: April 12, 2006, 06:34:18 PM »
Huck,

If they had tee boxes from 6875 ish like pre 1997 and you had only one round to play would you play that or the current Masters tees.  I would play those tees and that would be enough for me without even thinking about going farther back.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #129 on: April 12, 2006, 06:52:20 PM »
Huck,

If they had tee boxes from 6875 ish like pre 1997 and you had only one round to play would you play that or the current Masters tees.  I would play those tees and that would be enough for me without even thinking about going farther back.

Sean - yes, that would do.  But if I am made king, what I'd really want to play are the tees like they were in 1986 and use equipment from that date (ie persimmon).

TH


Peter Sayegh

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #130 on: April 12, 2006, 08:21:32 PM »
I've been surprised by the replies here.
First off, I compliment Mike Cirba for the first CORRECT answer. If my host desired, I'd play left-handed!
How could you NOT try the tournament tees? Say it takes you 110 strokes to get around the course. Fine. You spent quality time in heaven. Is that bad? ;D

Mark Arata

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #131 on: April 12, 2006, 08:21:38 PM »
Mark:

You emulate only approach shots?  You don't emulate tee shots?  The game starts in the fairway?






I just know that I cannot possibly hit any club in my bag 300 yards, but I know that if I make a good swing, I can reach anything from 200 yards in.....so the thrill of the course to me would be in trying to hit the greens in the correct positions in regulation, which would be nearly impossible for me from the 7400 yard tees on most every par 4 on the course.

I am a very self deprecating guy, but I am not really into S&M, which is what playing a 7400 yard course feels like to me......My limitations are my swing, my hairline, and my waistline, not necessarly in that order........
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 08:22:46 PM by Mark Arata »
New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #132 on: April 13, 2006, 12:06:06 AM »

The course is NOT in Masters shape year round. The greens are NOT "double freakie'd" year round. The greens are NOT rock hard year round.

The greens weren't rock hard last week.
In fact they were soft, by the players own admission.
With firm greens you wouldn't have a chance at breaking par from the tips, and, I'll wager any amount of money you want on that bet.

When the course is wetter, it plays softer, ergo much longer.
Also, look at the mean temperatures at ANGC in December, January and February, you might be quite surprised.
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I specifically qualified my assertion with the following: WITHOUT rock hard greens! What is it that you are having trouble understanding?

Those greens were soft as can be last week and the best players in the world couldn't break par, but, YOU CAN ?
That's a joke.
Those greens don't have to be rock hard to provide sufficient challenge.  If they were just firm instead of soft, even par or higher would have won that tournament.

I'm not viewing your play in the context of "rock hard" greens.
If they were rock hard I'd take the over on the 79 bet.
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If you ever took my meaning as: "I can break par at the Masters," then you need a lesson in reading comprehension. Once more so even YOU can understand it: I could NOT break par at The Masters. [size=4x]I could ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY break par at Augusta.[/size]

You're deluding yourself.
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If you don't believe that, then you do not know anything about high level amateur golf, PERIOD.

Having been one of the original USGA Mid-Amateur Committee members and having served for many many years on that committee, coupled with having played in USGA Amateurs, USGA Mid-Amateurs and USGA Senior Amateurs, and having played with some of the best PGA Tour pros in the world, I can assure you that I know a good deal more than you think, and probably a good deal more then you about high level amateur golf.  And, I know of the enormous gap between PGA Tour Players and high level amateur players.

But, it's nice that you think so highly of your game, confidence is an important factor in golf.
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« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 12:06:38 AM by Patrick_Mucci_Jr »

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #133 on: April 13, 2006, 12:13:09 AM »


One more note: Yeah, the members play Augusta prior to and right after the Masters in near Masters shape, but it's in that shapefor ABOUT TWO DAYS before and after.

That's totally untrue.

What are you basing the above statement on ?
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They immediately start watering the greens and returning the course to "normal" after that -- unless the many people I know who have played the course are liars.

It's rained for the last 3-5 years at ANGC, before, during and after the tournament, why would they water greens that are already saturated and soft ?  
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But let me see if I'm getting this straight: Are you contending that Augusta is in exactly the same shape as it is for the Masters year 'round?

No.

Would you show me where I ever said that ?

I'll ask you again, are you familiar with the mean daily temperatures during December, January and February ?

I for one would provide you with generous odds when you tee it up from the tips in 39 degree weather.
[/color]

Because if you are, that's pretty funny.

I'm a funny guy, just ask TEPaul.
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« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 12:13:38 AM by Patrick_Mucci_Jr »

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #134 on: April 13, 2006, 12:27:49 AM »

Don't forget that 68 year old Charles Coody shot 74 in the second round.  From the Masters tees, during the tournament itself.  After the course was stretched to 7400+ yards.
Not one round was contested at 7.400+ yards.
[/color]  

This idea that top mid amateurs like David could not shoot in the 70's there is crock.  

Shooting in the 70's and breaking par are two vastly different things.

Those familiar with the golf course can attest that they did NOT play the golf course from the tips, in fact, it looked like they went out of their way to set it up to play from a more benign length

Hence, if the best players in the world, NOT playing from the tips, on soft greens couldn't break par, I doubt that any amateur would have a "reasonable" chance of doing so FROM THE TIPS, under "reasonably" firm or wet conditions.
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JSlonis,

When someone says that they'll have a reasonable chance to break par, that connotes 50 % to me, not 33 %, not 20 % and certainly not 10 %.  Playing from the tips, which is NOT where the tournament was played from, makes par on a reasonably firm golf course a figment of David's imagination and/or ego.

And, if the golf course gets wet, it's really long.

I'd suggest that he requalify the statement to say that an exceptional amateur might have a slim chance of breaking par from the tips, not a reasonable one.

But, then again, David is far more familiar with the golf course and amateur golf at the higher levels.


Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #135 on: April 13, 2006, 12:41:50 AM »

I'm certainly willing to forgive and forget -- as long as Mucci admits he misinterpreted what I said, FIRST!!!  ;D

You were doing fine until you included the words "misinterpreted" and "FIRST"

I'm surprised that Tom Huckaby didn't advise you that I have two functions on this site, both of which I'm paid for by Ran.

One is to attempt to post interesting topics.
The second is to incite and/or play the Devil's Advocate on almost any issue.
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Seriously, Patrick, let's just tee it up sometime and settle it like the bad*ss PLAYAHS we are. :-)

I'd be happy to play with you anytime.
And, with your credentials, I'd be happy to sponsor you at some "high level amateur" events, even though I may not be familiar with that type of play. ;D
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Tom Huckaby,

Please, do not use Ran's name without adding the moniker,
"The Whiner"
What he did to you, and attempted to do to me at Sand Hills was shameless.
But,  he did have the round of his life against me.
Had it not been for an unfortunate drive on 18 he would have broken par at Sand Hills using genuine hickories.  Now, that's a feat worth noting.  And, I was rooting for him, despite the pebble he kicked onto the line of my putt on # 17.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 12:42:18 AM by Patrick_Mucci_Jr »

Chris Kane

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #136 on: April 13, 2006, 12:43:09 AM »
I havn't seen the golf course, but my gut feeling is that a +3 or +4 amateur would have to play exceptionally well to shoot in the mid 70's from the tips.  The Masters competitors are playing at a different level, and only thirteen of them broke even par over 72 holes!

Have a look at the standard of players who were shooting mid-70's in the Masters: DiMarco (76-74), Westwood (75-75), Lonard (76-74), Immelman (75-76), KJ Choi (76-76), O'Hair (76-76).  These players are so much better than a +3 or +4 its not funny.

Now the greens might be quicker during the Masters, but I can't imagine them being much softer.  


Jim Nugent

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #137 on: April 13, 2006, 05:36:12 AM »

Don't forget that 68 year old Charles Coody shot 74 in the second round.  From the Masters tees, during the tournament itself.  After the course was stretched to 7400+ yards.
Not one round was contested at 7.400+ yards.
[/color]  

This idea that top mid amateurs like David could not shoot in the 70's there is crock.  

Shooting in the 70's and breaking par are two vastly different things.

Those familiar with the golf course can attest that they did NOT play the golf course from the tips, in fact, it looked like they went out of their way to set it up to play from a more benign length

Hence, if the best players in the world, NOT playing from the tips, on soft greens couldn't break par, I doubt that any amateur would have a "reasonable" chance of doing so FROM THE TIPS, under "reasonably" firm or wet conditions.
[/color]

JSlonis,

When someone says that they'll have a reasonable chance to break par, that connotes 50 % to me, not 33 %, not 20 % and certainly not 10 %.  Playing from the tips, which is NOT where the tournament was played from, makes par on a reasonably firm golf course a figment of David's imagination and/or ego.

And, if the golf course gets wet, it's really long.

I'd suggest that he requalify the statement to say that an exceptional amateur might have a slim chance of breaking par from the tips, not a reasonable one.

But, then again, David is far more familiar with the golf course and amateur golf at the higher levels.


David Ober did not say tips.  He said Masters tees.  Are you saying they didn't play the Masters tournament itself from the Masters tees?

Coody shot 74.  Knox apparently shot 73.  And in tougher conditions than David Ober specified: they played in the tournament itself.  Ober is a legit +2 to +4.  If he really has no chance there, that must make Coody around a +7 or +8.  Move over Phil and Tiger.

Arguing over what reasonable means is just that: argumentative.  Ober quantified it: in five or ten rounds he thinks he could break par.  

The course obviously does not beat up on everyone, even if you are not close to one of the world's best.  Coody proved that last Friday.  


Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #138 on: April 13, 2006, 09:52:54 AM »
Patrick:  lesson learned, and well said to me.  You do put the D A in Devil's Advocate.   ;D

And you are oh so right abour Ran.

 ;D

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #139 on: April 13, 2006, 10:16:06 AM »


David Ober did not say tips.  [collor=blue]

Yes he did.
Reread his post # 2, where he specifically referenced playing from 7,400 +
[/color]

He said Masters tees.  

See the above comment.
[/color]

Are you saying they didn't play the Masters tournament itself from the Masters tees?

Evidently you can't read or comprehend what I said.
I said that no round was contested from 7,400+ yards.
Please reread the above sentence so that it sinks in.
The setup appeared "kind" to the competitors.
Perhaps all of the criticism regarding the additional length resulted in a shorter golf course.
[/color]

Coody shot 74.  Knox apparently shot 73.  And in tougher conditions than David Ober specified: they played in the tournament itself.  Ober is a legit +2 to +4.  If he really has no chance there, that must make Coody around a +7 or +8.  Move over Phil and Tiger.

Apparently shot 73 ?  What does that mean ?
What was his score ?  Did he finish every hole ?

The conditions weren't tougher then David specified, they were easier.   The greens weren't rock hard or even hard, they were soft and receptive.
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Arguing over what reasonable means is just that: argumentative.  Ober quantified it: in five or ten rounds he thinks he could break par.  

And I said I'll take that bet since I don't feel he can.
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The course obviously does not beat up on everyone, even if you are not close to one of the world's best.  Coody proved that last Friday.  

Coody didn't play if from 7,400 and the greens were soft.
How did Coody get to play in the Masters, was he a walk on, playing it for the first time ?
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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #140 on: April 13, 2006, 10:54:28 AM »
I would play the member's tees. Here's a good article by Bill Huffman, the golf writer from the East Valley Tribune, who won the media lottery and played ANGC on Moday:

April 13, 2006
Each year, approximately 1,000 members of the national and international media flock to Augusta, Ga., to cover the Masters.

It is a massive migration, where reporters band together to rent houses at a rate $3,000 to $5,000 for the week, and then hardly spend a minute there with the exception of a little sleep.

Although it’s a 14-hour-a-day grind due to late tee times and weather delays, I’m sure many people would love to trade jobs. Actually, I’ve never heard any member of the media complain, chiefly because it’s the best darn golf show, bar none.

There’s also a potential “perk,’’ which every ink-stained ragamuffin covets. It’s called the Monday Media Lottery, in which a few reporters and TV types are drawn to play Augusta National. And while your chances are about 1-in-20 of being picked, occasionally you get lucky.

That’s right, No. 531 in this year’s lottery — Bill Huffman — hit the jackpot. I was one of 32 media participants who teed off early Monday morning from the members’ tees (thank goodness!) to the final-round pin placements.

Unfortunately, my 7:52 a.m. tee time began on the 10th hole of the dreaded back nine. But, hey, I would have teed off in the parking lot if that eventually got me on Augusta National.

Actually, this was my second time around these hallowed grounds, as I also was drawn in 1997. At that time, I never thought I would play the course again, but a couple of years later they put in a new rule, making us eligible every seven years.

Immediately, I sensed that this second go-round was going to be even better, as I was allowed to drive up Magnolia Lane for the very first time in 18 years. Although this highly private, pristine pathway with the naturalgreen canopy is only about 200 yards long, I savored every foot as I crept along at a steady 5 mph.

I had planned to hire the same caddie as last time, a guy nicknamed “Lincolnton.’’

Unfortunately, many of the older caddies are gone, phased out by a new entity called Caddie Management Enterprises. The good news was a kid named Kyle got my bag, and like Lincolnton, he did an excellent job of reading these slick, surreal greens.

We did have one of the longtime caddies in our group, however, a delightful fellow named “Po’ Baby.’’ Po’ Baby is in the book “Men on the Bag: The Caddies of Augusta National,’’ and had looped for past Masters participants.

Po’ Baby certainly had his lines down pat. After watching our group all make double bogey or worse on our first hole, he said very delicately: “Gentleman, it’s not a crime to pick up your ball and move on.’’

He also had this one-liner when a Swedish writer hit a low liner that ran past the pond and onto the 11th green, “That shot looked like Barbra Streisand — ugly, but still workin’!’’

Along the way we all missed the par-3 12th green, the middle leg of Amen Corner. I was so pumped I knocked my 6 iron into the trees behind the green, as the memory of Rocco Mediate’s 10 (three balls in the water on Sunday) was still fresh in my mind.

When we got to the par-3 16th, everybody had to try the nowfamous Tiger chip that trickled backward into the cup in 2005. Nobody came close, although we did knock some bark off the Eisenhower tree with the ensuing tee shot at the 17th.

The hardest walk of the day was the 18th, where the fairway resembles mountain climbing. What you don’t realize from TV is that the steps go 12 stories high. There were several other grueling hauls on these concrete, bentgrass fairways that left my thighs and calves quivering.

Even though the front nine supposedly is more difficult, I rattled off four straight pars beginning at the third hole.

“Mr. Bill, four in a row, that’s an amazin’ feat for this group,’’ quipped Po’ Boy, which I took as a compliment.

Yeah, it was kind of like that, a constant struggle that was special beyond our wildest dreams. After every hole, I dreaded that such a flight of fantasy would eventually have to end, although it’s still playing over and over in my head.

A 6.8 handicap who probably is playing more like an 8.6, I shot 85 on this day, or four strokes better than the last time. And while I was pretty pleased with my effort, I never will forget these words from one of our foursome: “The best 113 I ever shot."
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jim Nugent

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #141 on: April 13, 2006, 11:49:41 AM »
Steve -- do you know which tees the media guys played?  

Patrick -- you regaled us in another thread with the story about your amateur friend who had everything together for the Masters.  Putting, swing, short game, confidence, the whole package.  Then he stepped onto the first tee of the tournament and fell apart.  Easy to believe.  

But now you are claiming the tournament itself this year was "easier" than the conditions David described -- even though David specifically said NON Masters play.  

Do you see the inconsistency?  Which is it?  

Do you really think Coody is a better player than David is now?  Remember, that will make him +5 or +6.  Minimum.  

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #142 on: April 13, 2006, 12:01:02 PM »
Jim

Bill Huffman said he played the members tees with the Sunday pin placements.I presume most media guys played the members tees.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #143 on: April 13, 2006, 12:06:04 PM »
Steve -- do you know which tees the media guys played?  

Patrick -- you regaled us in another thread with the story about your amateur friend who had everything together for the Masters.  Putting, swing, short game, confidence, the whole package.  Then he stepped onto the first tee of the tournament and fell apart.  Easy to believe.  

But now you are claiming the tournament itself this year was "easier" than the conditions David described -- even though David specifically said NON Masters play.  

Do you see the inconsistency?  Which is it?  

There is no inconsistency.
The conditions at this year's Masters were easier then
David described.
The greens weren't rock hard, the greens weren't hard, the greens weren't even firm, they were soft, which isn't how they play in March and April for regular play.

You appear to be suffering from a misunderstanding with respect to the greens at ANGC.  If you watched the tournament you would have seen how soft the greens were and from where the contestants were teeing off.  Both were more benign than what David had stated.
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Do you really think Coody is a better player than David is now?  Remember, that will make him +5 or +6.  Minimum.

Coody didn't play the golf course from 7,400+ yards.
Coody played soft, receptive greens
Coody didn't break par.

I'd be curious to know how many putts Coody had.
Someone said that Crenshaw had 21 putts during his first round.
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« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 12:06:42 PM by Patrick_Mucci_Jr »

David Ober

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #144 on: April 13, 2006, 12:28:42 PM »
I'm going to put an end to this once and for all and lay out point by point what I think I can do, and I will defer to Mucci on issues with which I am not familiar.

However, a couple caveats:

The greens at the Masters this year were, indeed, firm (as they always are for a major championship). Yes, there had been rain, but it is my contention that they were still firmer than they are kept year round.

My knowledge of Augusta is admittedly second-hand. I used to work at Professional Golfers Career College in Temecula, California, and several of the guys who work there have played Augusta. They all told me that the course (when they played it back in the mid-90's), from the Masters tees, was NOT overly difficult. They said it played to a rating of about 74. One of the guys, PGCC part-owner Kent Brown, a former mini-tour professional and former captain of the Long Beach State golf team, told me the course basically laid down for you from tee to green. He said you got gobs and gobs of roll on the fairways, and that if you were hitting your irons crisply, and judged your speed well, under par was definitely in the cards. I have played golf with Kent a couple dozen times and have beaten him more often than he has beaten me.

I am trying to contact Kent to get his thoughts on Augusta.

Second, I read an article on Augusta many years ago in a major golf mag or possibly Sports Illustrated that confirmed this. It basically said that playing Augusta at any other time of the year than the Masters, and you will shoot what you normally shoot on a reasonable tournament-level course of around the same length. It went on to talk about how the course "comes alive" during the Masters, and the greens are ratcheted up and firmed up and THAT is where the challenge lies at Augusta.

Now, again, this was back in the 90's, so it was when the course was playing easier, but that is where I get my opinions about Augusta. I read it in a reputable magazine and then had it confirmed by people who have spent their lives in the golf business. Can you blame me for coming to that conclusion? It's also been echoed by others here who seem to have some golf credentials.

Now as to what I am asserting:

1. I could break par at least once or twice in ten tries from the Masters tees that were played the day Coody shot 74 (evidently not "the tips" according to Mucci). I could do this ESPECIALLY if the weather cooperated and it was in the 60's or higher.

2. I could NOT break par in the actual Masters tournament itself.

3. I COULD shoot in the 70's (75-79) in the actual Masters tournament, and would expect at least one round in the 70's in four tournament rounds.

Finally, a couple questions for you, Pat:

Do you think Kemp Richardson could break par at Augusta once in ten tries?

Do you think Kemp Richardson could shoot under par in the Masters itself?

Do you think Kemp Richardson could shoot in the 70's in the Masters?

 


David Ober

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #145 on: April 13, 2006, 12:39:29 PM »
Steve -- do you know which tees the media guys played?  

Patrick -- you regaled us in another thread with the story about your amateur friend who had everything together for the Masters.  Putting, swing, short game, confidence, the whole package.  Then he stepped onto the first tee of the tournament and fell apart.  Easy to believe.  

But now you are claiming the tournament itself this year was "easier" than the conditions David described -- even though David specifically said NON Masters play.  

Do you see the inconsistency?  Which is it?  

There is no inconsistency.
The conditions at this year's Masters were easier then
David described.
The greens weren't rock hard, the greens weren't hard, the greens weren't even firm, they were soft, which isn't how they play in March and April for regular play.

You appear to be suffering from a misunderstanding with respect to the greens at ANGC.  If you watched the tournament you would have seen how soft the greens were and from where the contestants were teeing off.  Both were more benign than what David had stated.
[/color]

Do you really think Coody is a better player than David is now?  Remember, that will make him +5 or +6.  Minimum.

Coody didn't play the golf course from 7,400+ yards.
Coody played soft, receptive greens
Coody didn't break par.

I'd be curious to know how many putts Coody had.
Someone said that Crenshaw had 21 putts during his first round.
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Just so we're clear: I NEVER MEANT TO INTIMATE THAT I COULD BREAK PAR IN THE ACTUAL MASTERS TOURNAMENT.

I think you, Patrick, are the ONLY person who thinks that I did this.

You also seem to believe that the course plays exactly the same difficulty, or very close, year-round. I find this very difficult, if not impossible, to believe and am going to find reputable golf sources who have played Augusta who will confirm that you are off your rocker. ;-)

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #146 on: April 13, 2006, 12:57:50 PM »

I'm going to put an end to this once and for all and lay out point by point what I think I can do, and I will defer to Mucci on issues with which I am not familiar.

However, a couple caveats:

The greens at the Masters this year were, indeed, firm (as they always are for a major championship). Yes, there had been rain, but it is my contention that they were still firmer than they are kept year round.

They were not firm, they were soft and many players commented on their condition.

If you watched TV, large pitch marks, with balls sticking or backing up were the norm, not the exception
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My knowledge of Augusta is admittedly second-hand. I used to work at Professional Golfers Career College in Temecula, California, and several of the guys who work there have played Augusta. They all told me that the course (when they played it back in the mid-90's), from the Masters tees, was NOT overly difficult.

That's about 500+ yards ago.
[/color]

They said it played to a rating of about 74. One of the guys, PGCC part-owner Kent Brown, a former mini-tour professional and former captain of the Long Beach State golf team, told me the course basically laid down for you from tee to green. He said you got gobs and gobs of roll on the fairways, and that if you were hitting your irons crisply, and judged your speed well, under par was definitely in the cards. I have played golf with Kent a couple dozen times and have beaten him more often than he has beaten me.

That was long before the course was substantively lengthened to 7,400+ yards.

Roll is a function of the season and Mother Nature.
You can play there and not get an inch of roll.
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I am trying to contact Kent to get his thoughts on Augusta.

Second, I read an article on Augusta many years ago in a major golf mag or possibly Sports Illustrated that confirmed this. It basically said that playing Augusta at any other time of the year than the Masters, and you will shoot what you normally shoot on a reasonable tournament-level course of around the same length. It went on to talk about how the course "comes alive" during the Masters, and the greens are ratcheted up and firmed up and THAT is where the challenge lies at Augusta.

Are you stating that, if "Sports Illustrated" wrote an article we must then accept the author's opinion as the Gospel ?
Who was the author and did he play the golf course from the tips ?
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Now, again, this was back in the 90's, so it was when the course was playing easier, but that is where I get my opinions about Augusta. I read it in a reputable magazine and then had it confirmed by people who have spent their lives in the golf business. Can you blame me for coming to that conclusion? It's also been echoed by others here who seem to have some golf credentials.

The problem with your conclusions is that they're based on out-dated data and questionable sources.  If your data base and asssumptions are flawed, surely your conclusion will be flawed as well.
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Now as to what I am asserting:

1. I could break par at least once or twice in ten tries from the Masters tees that were played the day Coody shot 74 (evidently not "the tips" according to Mucci). I could do this ESPECIALLY if the weather cooperated and it was in the 60's or higher.

The betting window remains open
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2. I could NOT break par in the actual Masters tournament itself.

3. I COULD shoot in the 70's (75-79) in the actual Masters tournament, and would expect at least one round in the 70's in four tournament rounds.

I'd book that as well
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Finally, a couple questions for you, Pat:

Do you think Kemp Richardson could break par at Augusta once in ten tries?

From the tips, NO
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Do you think Kemp Richardson could shoot under par in the Masters itself?

Today, NO
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Do you think Kemp Richardson could shoot in the 70's in the Masters?

Today, possibly, but, unlikely.
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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #147 on: April 13, 2006, 01:05:20 PM »

Just so we're clear: I NEVER MEANT TO INTIMATE THAT I COULD BREAK PAR IN THE ACTUAL MASTERS TOURNAMENT.

I think you, Patrick, are the ONLY person who thinks that I did this.

No, I never indicated that I thought that.
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You also seem to believe that the course plays exactly the same difficulty, or very close, year-round.

No, I never said that either.
Didn't you read my posts about the mean temperature in December, January and February.

But, it plays pretty close to that, weather pemiting, leading up to and after the tournament.
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I find this very difficult, if not impossible, to believe and am going to find reputable golf sources who have played Augusta who will confirm that you are off your rocker. ;-)

Just because I'm off my rocker doesn't mean that my position is incorrect.

Green speeds weren't over the top.
The greens were soft
The tees weren't all the way back,
And yet, the best players in the world, PGA Tour Pros struggled with the golf course, rarely breaking par.
What does that tell you ?
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David Ober

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #148 on: April 13, 2006, 01:10:15 PM »

Just so we're clear: I NEVER MEANT TO INTIMATE THAT I COULD BREAK PAR IN THE ACTUAL MASTERS TOURNAMENT.

I think you, Patrick, are the ONLY person who thinks that I did this.

No, I never indicated that I thought that.
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You also seem to believe that the course plays exactly the same difficulty, or very close, year-round.

No, I never said that either.
Didn't you read my posts about the mean temperature in December, January and February.

But, it plays pretty close to that, weather pemiting, leading up to and after the tournament.
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I find this very difficult, if not impossible, to believe and am going to find reputable golf sources who have played Augusta who will confirm that you are off your rocker. ;-)

Just because I'm off my rocker doesn't mean that my position is incorrect.

Green speeds weren't over the top.
The greens were soft
The tees weren't all the way back,
And yet, the best players in the world, PGA Tour Pros struggled with the golf course, rarely breaking par.
What does that tell you ?
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That the course is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT, and that I could definitely shoot in the 70's.

I am as good, on a one-round basis, as Puga, Hogarth, Marsh, and all of the other U.S. Mid-Am champs.

We will never settle the "under par in non-Masters conditions" disagreement, because I would never bet a substantial amount of money that I could break par in only one try at Augusta.

I WOULD bet a substantial amount of money (for me) that I could break par once or twice in ten tries -- unfortunately, I'll never get that chance...  :'(

Glenn Spencer

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #149 on: April 13, 2006, 01:24:08 PM »
What are the odds again Patrick, I would like to see them laid out so I can place my bet accordingly.

71-
72-75
76-79
80+

These rounds would take place when? and from the absolute back? I don't believe Augusta to be so much harder to a person in 06, than it was in 98. The advantages today have taken a tough golf course and made it a Tough Golf Course. I don't think it is some impossible place to play golf. If given ten rounds at ANGC, I feel confident that David or any other decorated amateur would be able to shoot better than par, this is what they do.