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David Ober

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #100 on: April 12, 2006, 10:24:57 AM »
One of California's top mid amateurs cannot shoot under par at Augusta ever?    

Jim, never say never.

Not sure about California mid-amateurs but two Tennesseans have won the USGA Mid-Amateur:  Danny Green (1999) and Tim Jackson (1994, 2001).  Notwithstanding their advancing ages (late 40's) they are currently co-ranked 20th by Golfweek.  I might be mistaken but I don't see anybody on this site in the top 261.  

Green shot 73,76 in the 2000 Masters, missing the cut by a single shot.  Jackson shot 79,76 in the 1995 Masters and 76,78 in the 2001 toonament.  

Again, no disrespect to anyone on this site.  Breaking par from the Masters tee is a big hill, even for a climber.

Mike

You have to play in "Golf Week points events" to be ranked, and there is exactly one Golf Week points event in the entire state of California, and it's in Northern California.

Don't get me started on how ridiculous that is...

Tim Pitner

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #101 on: April 12, 2006, 02:34:02 PM »

Question:  As a marker, did Knox hole every putt?


I read that Knox did not hole every putt; he picked up something like 3 times in the third round to keep the game flowing better for Furyk.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #102 on: April 12, 2006, 02:42:10 PM »

The Masters tees. Because without tournament pressure and rock hard greens, I could almost certainly keep it in the 70's from there [size=4x]and would actually have a reasonable chance of breaking par.[/size]

I've played exactly two 7400+ yard courses and have broken par once in three tries.

The conditions would matter more than anything. I have heard that the course is set up rather tamely for the members most of the year and that the green usually run at 10 to 11.


Here's what you wrote, my reading comprehension skills remain sharp, your memory ......... foggy

The course is NOT set up tamely for the members, and they play it prior to and after the Masters, just like they do every year.
[/color]



David Ober

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #103 on: April 12, 2006, 02:43:25 PM »

Question:  As a marker, did Knox hole every putt?


I read that Knox did not hole every putt; he picked up something like 3 times in the third round to keep the game flowing better for Furyk.

Oh I'm sure he would have four-putted every one of those times. After all, an amateur has no chance of ever shooting in the 70's at Augusta in Masters conditions.

David Ober

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #104 on: April 12, 2006, 02:48:22 PM »

The Masters tees. Because without tournament pressure and rock hard greens, I could almost certainly keep it in the 70's from there [size=4x]and would actually have a reasonable chance of breaking par.[/size]

I've played exactly two 7400+ yard courses and have broken par once in three tries.

The conditions would matter more than anything. I have heard that the course is set up rather tamely for the members most of the year and that the green usually run at 10 to 11.


Here's what you wrote, my reading comprehension skills remain sharp, your memory ......... foggy

The course is NOT set up tamely for the members, and they play it prior to and after the Masters, just like they do every year.
[/color]



The course is NOT in Masters shape year round. The greens are NOT "double freakie'd" year round. The greens are NOT rock hard year round.

You do NOT know what you are talking about.

I specifically qualified my assertion with the following: WITHOUT rock hard greens! What is it that you are having trouble understanding?

If you ever took my meaning as: "I can break par at the Masters," then you need a lesson in reading comprehension. Once more so even YOU can understand it: I could NOT break par at The Masters. I could ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY break par at Augusta.

If you don't believe that, then you do not know anything about high level amateur golf, PERIOD.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #105 on: April 12, 2006, 02:54:36 PM »
David- of course not, an amateur will never finish in the top 16 again either!! I don't know why they invite those hacks!! It is so great that they don't invite the Walker Cup members anymore. Jones was an idiot for wanting people to play in his tournament that couldn't putt the greens or hit the par 4s in two.

David Ober

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #106 on: April 12, 2006, 02:56:59 PM »

The Masters tees. Because without tournament pressure and rock hard greens, I could almost certainly keep it in the 70's from there [size=4x]and would actually have a reasonable chance of breaking par.[/size]

I've played exactly two 7400+ yard courses and have broken par once in three tries.

The conditions would matter more than anything. I have heard that the course is set up rather tamely for the members most of the year and that the green usually run at 10 to 11.


Here's what you wrote, my reading comprehension skills remain sharp, your memory ......... foggy

The course is NOT set up tamely for the members, and they play it prior to and after the Masters, just like they do every year.
[/color]



One more note: Yeah, the members play Augusta prior to and right after the Masters in near Masters shape, but it's in that shapefor ABOUT TWO DAYS before and after. They immediately start watering the greens and returning the course to "normal" after that -- unless the many people I know who have played the course are liars.

But let me see if I'm getting this straight: Are you contending that Augusta is in exactly the same shape as it is for the Masters year 'round? Because if you are, that's pretty funny.

Tim Pitner

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #107 on: April 12, 2006, 02:57:10 PM »

Question:  As a marker, did Knox hole every putt?


I read that Knox did not hole every putt; he picked up something like 3 times in the third round to keep the game flowing better for Furyk.

Oh I'm sure he would have four-putted every one of those times. After all, an amateur has no chance of ever shooting in the 70's at Augusta in Masters conditions.

I have no dog in this fight; I was just trying to answer Mr. Hendren's question.  I think "73" is what Knox thought he would have shot if he had holed out on every hole.  I don't know how he treated the holes on which he picked up.  

JSlonis

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #108 on: April 12, 2006, 03:32:41 PM »
Jeff Knox is a very accomplished amateur golfer.  I think a couple of years ago he shot 140 for the qualifying rounds at the Crump Cup.  Not an easy task by any means.  He has also won some prestigious events and been a solid player for a long time.

A good friend of mine Ace Eaton played in the 2005 Masters as the Mid-Am champ.  I believe he told me he broke par during some practice rounds leading up to the tournament, but when the actual tournament week rolled around though, it was an entirely different story.  The golf course come the first round on Thursday was just "maxed" out in terms of difficulty and setup.  It played nowhere near the same as it did during rounds about a month prior to the event.  Obviously, there aren't the massive galleries and all the other commotion when you are there playing a practice round by yourself.  Ace actually played a round or two with Jeff Knox leading up to the tourney so that he could better learn about the course.

I don't think David is wrong at all.  There are top ranked Mid-Am's that could possibly break par during the Masters.  Would it be an extremely difficult task?...NO question, but it's not totally impossible.  As for breaking par from the back tees during just a "normal" round at Augusta(if there is such a thing)there is no doubt that can happen.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 03:43:41 PM by JSlonis »

Jim Nugent

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #109 on: April 12, 2006, 04:17:26 PM »
Don't forget that 68 year old Charles Coody shot 74 in the second round.  From the Masters tees, during the tournament itself.  After the course was stretched to 7400+ yards.  

This idea that top mid amateurs like David could not shoot in the 70's there is crock.  

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #110 on: April 12, 2006, 04:27:08 PM »
Far be it from me to try and be a peacemaker, but I can't help myself...

David Ober, relatively new to this site, clearly is a GREAT amateur player.  His results are all there for the world to see, if one looks hard enough.  There's also certainly enough word of mouth about him - I had heard of him long before he came on this site.  He's never played Augusta.

Patrick Mucci is also a GREAT amateur player, still a force as a senior, without a doubt.  His results are also right there for the world to see, if one looks hard enough - and one doesn't have to look all that hard.  He has played Augusta.

So how about this:  Patrick, how about you lay off the doubt on what David can and can't do in this game, and acknowledge he knows that better than you do?  And David, you acknowledge that Patrick, having actually played the course, might know the course a bit better than you do?

Do that and you each might learn something.   ;)

What's the bet on if this will work?   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 04:31:31 PM by Tom Huckaby »

George Pazin

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #111 on: April 12, 2006, 04:38:27 PM »
So you're proposing one guy evaluate another guy's game - who he hasn't seen - while the other guy take the other guy's word - whose game he hasn't seen - on a course he's never played?

That might be the hypothetical to end all hypotheticals, pure speculation at its uninformed best.

 :)

1) I'd say Jamie Slonis is in the best position to evaluate what David could do;

and

2) the key to seeing the truth in David's statements is that he specifically used qualifiers, like the word could and the course as it plays for the members.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #112 on: April 12, 2006, 04:44:52 PM »
George:

Where did I suggest either evaluate the other's game?

I suggested that perhaps David knows his own game, and capabilities, better than Patrick knows DAVID'S game.

I suggested that Patrick knows the course and it's conditions outside of Master's play better than David does, because Patrick has played there.

I find each of those very reasonable.

You don't?

Then I suggested that if each acknowledged this, they might learn from each other.

Disagree?

Can't see how you could...

As for truth or non-truth, who could best do anything - I make no assessments, other than to say your 1) and 2) sound good to me.  But neither of those were my point.

TH

« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 04:46:04 PM by Tom Huckaby »

David Ober

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #113 on: April 12, 2006, 04:45:28 PM »
Far be it from me to try and be a peacemaker, but I can't help myself...

David Ober, relatively new to this site, clearly is a GREAT amateur player.  His results are all there for the world to see, if one looks hard enough.  There's also certainly enough word of mouth about him - I had heard of him long before he came on this site.  He's never played Augusta.

Patrick Mucci is also a GREAT amateur player, still a force as a senior, without a doubt.  His results are also right there for the world to see, if one looks hard enough - and one doesn't have to look all that hard.  He has played Augusta.

So how about this:  Patrick, how about you lay off the doubt on what David can and can't do in this game, and acknowledge he knows that better than you do?  And David, you acknowledge that Patrick, having actually played the course, might know the course a bit better than you do?

Do that and you each might learn something.   ;)

What's the bet on if this will work?   ;)

TH

I'm certainly willing to forgive and forget -- as long as Mucci admits he misinterpreted what I said, FIRST!!!  ;D

Seriously, Patrick, let's just tee it up sometime and settle it like the bad*ss PLAYAHS we are. :-)

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #114 on: April 12, 2006, 04:47:07 PM »
David - that's the spirit.  Just be careful with Mucci - he may be a senior now, but the man can play... and the man can DEFINITELY negotiate terms.

Just ask Ran.

 ;D
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 04:47:48 PM by Tom Huckaby »

David Ober

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #115 on: April 12, 2006, 05:01:31 PM »
Far be it from me to try and be a peacemaker, but I can't help myself...

David Ober, relatively new to this site, clearly is a GREAT amateur player.  His results are all there for the world to see, if one looks hard enough.  There's also certainly enough word of mouth about him - I had heard of him long before he came on this site.  He's never played Augusta.

Patrick Mucci is also a GREAT amateur player, still a force as a senior, without a doubt.  His results are also right there for the world to see, if one looks hard enough - and one doesn't have to look all that hard.  He has played Augusta.

So how about this:  Patrick, how about you lay off the doubt on what David can and can't do in this game, and acknowledge he knows that better than you do?  And David, you acknowledge that Patrick, having actually played the course, might know the course a bit better than you do?

Do that and you each might learn something.   ;)

What's the bet on if this will work?   ;)

TH

Just to clarify, I am not, nor do I claim to be, a "GREAT" amateur player. I'm a very, very good mid-amateur.

If I ever manage to actually WIN a legitimate SoCal event, that would certainly elevate my stature. One thing a lot of people don't understand about California golf is that California is home to 1/6 the population of the ENTIRE COUNTRY. If you can compete here on a legitimate basis, that automatically elevates you to the "nationally competitive" level.

Of course, at the "nationally competitive" level, there is a whole other subset of players at the top who separate(d)themselves from other mid-ams, guys like Jay Sigel, Allen Doyle, Mark Johnson, et al. Those guys are the Tigers, Phils, and Elses of the mid-am world, and I'm Jay Delsing.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #116 on: April 12, 2006, 05:12:20 PM »
David - understood, all of it.  Of course you sure look great to a 6 hdcp hack like me, but on a national level of course you have a ways to go.  My point was you are sure good enough to be able to assess your own game, and how it stacks up.

TH

Jeff Fortson

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #117 on: April 12, 2006, 05:22:05 PM »
The tips.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #118 on: April 12, 2006, 05:26:26 PM »
Jeff - as well you should.  I'd call you a pussy if you did anything else, given your game.

 ;D ;D

David Ober

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Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #119 on: April 12, 2006, 05:28:39 PM »
The tips.


Jeff F.

What would YOU shoot at Augusta from the tips, you HACK?!?!  ;D

tonyt

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #120 on: April 12, 2006, 05:36:06 PM »
I just think it is hilarious that on this site where the mantra is anti-length for the sake of it because it isn't effective and pro-strategy and defending holes at the green complex because it is just as tough and far more clever, guys suddenly turn on a dime.

And you know what? Most posts in favour of the Masters Tee have once again proven me correct about people making their decision based on a few square inches piece of white card and not based on the golf course!!

Just like #10-11 at Pac Dunes may be a riot to play without worrying about the connotations on the scorecard, I reckon the scorecard here at Augusta is leading people to make the wrong decision based very little on the golf course. Who cares if it is well below 6500 yards. We know what that means on the scorecard, but not in real life, and nobody can attest to all the clubs they think will be taken out of their hands, or decision opportunities they'll hit or miss.

I'm not asserting that a 10-15 marker is mad to play The Masters tee because of the score they'd shoot. It is because they wouldn't get to play the actual golf course at all, and waste their one chance to come here. They'd play none of the fun shots, and spend all day hitting aimless shots with the greatest features less or not at all in play.

Just for the record, forgetting the 70-75 shooters on here, everyone else would be playing second shots either from the trees short of the fairway if a tad off line, or from the start of the fairway and with virtually none of the interesting stuff in play all day. I wouldn't demand to play the same club in as a pro. I'll have my longer club in hand, but I still want to play to the same features they do. Because it is those features that make this course great!

Too many guys on here who don't/can't admit it would be closer to my potential playability below than to being able to play to most greens in reg, and more so, that the chutes off the tee would mean that any guys not running HOT with the big stick on the day would be taking two on some holes (both lengthwise and narrow penalty wise) to reach the very start of the fairway cut. Forget the scoring. How much fun is that? So if you get three games, do it once. But the thread suggests you get one shot at it.

On #18, I want to see the green with my second shot, and I want to either be just able to reach the bunker off the tee, or if not, then at least get within 20-30 yards of it. What familiarity thrill of the Masters challenge am I going to get from hopefuuly negotiating the chute to the beginning of the fairway, then playing a fairway wood or rescue club to a wedge out and then pitching on?

On #17, I want to hit it at least within a few yards of the distance of the tree. Then it would be in play, and that would be cool.

On #15, I want to not be able to hit a 3 wood second shot well short of the pond. Not because I demand a chance to get on in two, but at least to be able to have the pond in play and to make a decision with my second.

On #14, I want to be able to get my second shot (even if it is with 3 wood) beyond the front banking of the green.

On #13, see my note for #15. How much of a waste of my ONLY game here to be able to mindlessly hit driver 3 wood with only the left side to worry about.

On #11, I said before. It would become a par 5 with the pond not even in play until I have a pitch or fullish wedge third in. So I've just missed the entire hole.

On #10, Maybe an exception here. The bunker may be well located for a carry it or lay up call. Still no green to play to.

On #9, have to look through the trees to see the green, with my long second shot thudding into the upslope.

On #8, the portions of the green become irrelevant because an excellent long third shot gets anywhere on the green at all.

On #7, banging fairway wood into front bunkers sure turns me on.

On #5, See most comments for long par 4s. At least I'll have a fairway wood shot at it, since I won't have even dreamt of getting up beyond the full width of fairway with no danger.

On #4, par 4 for a teen handicap player. If it is among the morning dew, I can't get home in one.

On #1, who cares about the bunker? The green would be fairly forgiving for a 50 yard third shot, so no demons to face here.

Does any of that sound like actual fun? Sure, you are doing it at Augusta, but playing from the right tees, you are also at Augusta, and get the experience to go with it. Remember Huck, ONE game.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #121 on: April 12, 2006, 06:07:46 PM »
Tony - one game makes the decision a lot tougher.  I've come to accept your logic, and that of Mucci, that it just wouldn't be much fun, for all the reasons you state.  HOWEVER... this isn't any golf course.  This is one I've been viewing all my life, dreaming of all my life, waiting to play all my life.

As un-fun as it would be, in terms of the painful shots I'd face... exactly as you describe....

I just can't see not giving the tips a try.  Because it's not PLAYING AUGUSTA that I've dreamed of, it's PRETENDING TO PLAY IN THE MASTERS.

That's a very big difference.  Understand?

So Ok, here's hoping I get the great fortune to have to make this choice some day.  I have no great hopes that such will occur.  But if it does, well... assuming the choice is possible...

If given one round, I would likely play the members tees', just for purpose of not being a prick.  I'd go home very happy, but perhaps with a tiny bit of regret.

If given several rounds, there is absolutely no doubt one gets played from the tips.

One final thing:  I don't think it's fair to say how one treats this EXTREMELY special situtation somehow invalidates or colors his overall views on playing the game.  Outside of Augusta, hell I don't care if you put me at the purple challenger tees - I go where the group goes, where the host suggests, and I damn near always manage to have fun.  I have zero tee ego, and do find a lot of courses stretched way too long.  I've played many rounds in the UK and Ireland all from members' tees and never gave such a second thought.  As you might have read, I've gotten quite a bit into using hickories.  It's fun and yes, it brings in strategies that I otherwise miss using modern clubs.

For my one visit to Augusta?

I think it's fair to treat it differently.

Tell ya what.  If they move the pros up and make them use hickories there, I will also.  Remember, I'm pretending to play the Masters.

 ;)

TH
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 06:09:36 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Mark Arata

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #122 on: April 12, 2006, 06:08:56 PM »
sorry, I just recovered from the uprovoked attack by Mr Kelly in Chapter 4 of this novel....

Like I said, for most of us, 7400 yards is too much course, and the experience would be less than memorable hitting driver, 3 wood all day..for most, the chance to emulate the shots you see on TV would be from the 6400-6700 yard range, or if not in existance, the members tees. Doesnt make you a bad person to admit that you cant play from the tips, at least I dont think so......


And the answer is still "by height" ;D






New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Tom Huckaby

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #123 on: April 12, 2006, 06:10:34 PM »
Mark:

You emulate only approach shots?  You don't emulate tee shots?  The game starts in the fairway?

And yes, it is by height.

 ;D


tonyt

Re:Which tees would you play at Augusta?
« Reply #124 on: April 12, 2006, 06:14:29 PM »
Because it's not PLAYING AUGUSTA that I've dreamed of, it's PRETENDING TO PLAY IN THE MASTERS.

That's a very big difference.  Understand?

Yes :)

I've understood from the start, and I too would play one of five games from there for the same reason, if the tees were open on that basis and the playing partner(s) were equally inclined.

But not my one and only.