Ballyneal 12th

[Troy Alderson]

On the Ballyneal website, I noticed from a picture of the 12th green there appear mounds in the middle.  Are they mounds or a transition between the two sides of the green?  They appear nicely proportioned for the green, not too big or small.  Any insight?

Also, when a hole is laidout and the surface is not disturbed for the fairway and roughs, what is the process to keep the soil intact?  I am asking is terms of start to finish, soil prep to seeding to grow in.  Thank you for the assistance.

Troy Alderson

[A_Clay_Man]

Troy, I can attempt to answer you, but the truth is, I can only comment in a general sense. Soon, I can do a better job.  Ballyneal's greens (and fairways) have the license to go wild with the contouring. Firstly because they fit into their natural surrounds. And second, because they are more than likely natural. Which delves into your second question about the turf. I assume it's the sandy make-up of the soil that has and will keep the turf in place. Then there's the roots, Which I would expect to be DEEP. Why? Because the place is gonna hum. Hum, firm and fast, on fescue. How? Through an age old chineese secret.... Proper watering.

The 12th

[John Kirk]

Tom Doak will probably comment, but those mounds are big enough so a ball on the wrong side of the mounds will be a difficult two putt.  It's an easy hole with a tough green.  Medium length players should be able to hit 9-iron or picthing wedge approaches.

The right half of the green (left side in this photo) is two or three feet higher than the left, and the mounds are another two or three feet high.  It's a roller coaster ride down to the left side.

This hole is about 380 yards, but at the high elevation it is expected that long hitters can have a crack at the green by bombing it down the left side (once again, the extreme right side of the photo).

[Larry_Keltto]

Another interesting element of the hole is that if you leak your tee shot to the right, you are left with a blind, extremely uphill shot to the green.

[Tom_Doak]

There isn't a green at Ballyneal which is completely natural in its contours.  Brian Schneider shaped #12.  John's description is close although the mounds are not as high as he said (they're maybe a foot higher than the right plateau of green).  The left side is in a long, skinny punchbowl, so it's not as hard to get your approach somewhere in the bowl, it's just hard to control exactly where it winds up.

As for the fairway contours, in areas where we didn't want to change the contours at all, we left the dune grasses on them until fairly late in the game, but disked them up just before the irrigation came through, and then kept them wet with irrigation until they could be hydroseeded.  Nearly all areas of the course were treated with a pre-plant mix before seeding.

[A_Clay_Man]

I love learning, thanx Tom.

Troy, It is an amazing site to see this green from the center of the fairway. The slope on that mounds angles so sharply it will not only stimulate your constant attention as the ball travels to it's ultimate conclusion. But, will also be the backbone for the strategy of how one plays the hole.

[ed_getka]

Looks cool. You must be chomping at the bit Adam.

[John Kirk]

It may not be apparent that the blind uphill approach from the right half of the fairway must also carry a fairly deep greenside bunker.  There are a few places on the course where the reverse view does not show any bunkers.  Stand at a green and look backwards...hey, they're gone!

The bunkers are really tough at Ballyneal, which makes sense, since they are the only hazard.  They are not huge like some of Sand Hills' bunkers, but the native sand is inconsistent, and gets packed down in places.  I have no problem with this.  Even if the bunkers are groomed regularly (I hope they will be), the wind and the natural inconsistency of the sand will require the player to adjust to each unique lie.


 

[Troy Alderson]

As for the fairway contours, in areas where we didn't want to change the contours at all, we left the dune grasses on them until fairly late in the game, but disked them up just before the irrigation came through, and then kept them wet with irrigation until they could be hydroseeded.  Nearly all areas of the course were treated with a pre-plant mix before seeding.

Thank you Tom for the insight.  How deep was the disking, 4 to 6 inches or so?  Were any chemicals used to control weeds or unwanted grasses?

Troy Alderson

[RJ_Daley]

Tom Doak, a little off this topic, but do you anticipate that they will burn the native areas, from time to time, or seasonally?  Or, are they restricted from burning by local ordinance?

[tonyt]

Two points about this pic. Firstly, many say strategy is dead because if they have the wrong angle from the fairway into a green, modern gear lets them stop it quick, and so hitting over a hazard to a hole location isn't what it used to be. Well here is an ideal hole to portray the difference between

What I love about pics like this is the left hand side with visibility and the green aligned to you to a right hole location, compared to the right half with little flagstick visibility, green angled across somewhat and the added judgement required because the shot isn't "presented" to you as such. Same goes for left side hole locations, with left side of fairway getting a similarly good look in and right side getting nada. Accessible to hit it inside ten feet from the wrong side of the fairway, but only if you hit a shot that makes your buddies clap.

Secondly, the use of spines, ridges and other topographical changes that meld from the green back into the fairway, as has been commented on in theory and in practice here a lot. I love how it rebels against the raised "stadium" green or the preoccupation with separating a green from its surrounds like a drop in job, and yet still makes for a grand and fitting stage as opposed to just sticking a flag in the ground.

The 12th

[A_Clay_Man]

do you anticipate that they will burn the native areas, from time to time, or seasonally?  

I don't know if there any plans to burn, and after my recent trip to WH, I hope they do not.

It's my observation that Josn's burning has created more ground cover than what was there before.

Do you think that's true, Dick?

[John Kirk]

I'll tell you that when they had the unplanned burn last June it scared the hell out of everyone.  A fire blew over the hill on a windy day, and all work stopped on the golf course just trying to stop the fire from burning everything in its path.

I wouldn't mess with unnatural burning.  One thing I really love about Ballyneal is the unusual native environment, which is surprisingly different than Sand Hills.  Flowers and turtles.  Not as much grass.

[Matt_Ward]

John Kirk / Tom Doak:

Fascinating green complex and hole !!!

Just a few questions -- how much elevation is there -- 20 feet, 30 feet, etc, etc, above the fairway ?

I know the wind situation can vary but what is the prevailing wind in most situations when playing the hole ?

Last question -- and forgive my ignorance -- but how long and in what manner of land usage is the 11th and 13th holes ?

Thanks ...

P.S. I salute the use of spines and ridges of this type. They certainly provide an egalitarian leveling for all players -- even those inclined to give the green a try from the tee.

[John Kirk]

Matt,

I don't remember perfectly, but here's some info.

The right half of the fairway is about 10-15 feet below the green.  All you can see is the flag and the bunker, but it's no more than a half club extra.  The left half of the fairway is about even to slightly above the green.

The wind blows from two primary directions during the golf season, from the south or north, with the south wind generally being the fair weather wind.  For instance, today it's sunny with a 14 mph south wind.  #12 plays to the north-northwest, so downwind in the summer, adding a little incentive to go for it.

#11 is a 200 yard par 3 with a very large green.  It plays west/northwest, a crosswind hole.  #13 is a long par 4, 424 yards from the regular tees, with a 484 yard back tee behind the 12th green.  It turns around and goes west/southwest.  In the south wind players will face a right to left crossing wind, slightly against.  #13 features one of the widest (90-100 yards) and most complex fairways on the course.

It's great to see the interest in the 12th hole.  It's one of the easier holes on the course.  I'm a medium-long hitter, but a good wedge player, so most times I'll just get something in play out there, letting the ball roll down to the bottom of the hill, then try to get a wedge shot close for birdie.  You have to hit the correct side of the green though, or it's a tough two putt.

Gotta go.  Thanks for the interest!

[Troy Alderson]

Secondly, the use of spines, ridges and other topographical changes that meld from the green back into the fairway, as has been commented on in theory and in practice here a lot. I love how it rebels against the raised "stadium" green or the preoccupation with separating a green from its surrounds like a drop in job, and yet still makes for a grand and fitting stage as opposed to just sticking a flag in the ground.

Tony,

I agree.  The green looks like it is a natural part of the terrain, not separated out like many American golf greens.  Golf course designs like this put to rest the oppositions view of golf as unnatural.  But land like this is very far and few between these days.  We all must appreciate works like this and market them to show how golf can fit into the environment with minimal inputs.

Tom Doak,

How deep was the disking?

Troy

[RJ_Daley]

Adam, the burned area looks ugly for about two weeks.  Then, the new growth fescue and bluestem light up a wispy light green texture.  It is great then.  Josh has told me the specific benefits before, but I forget exactly what he said.  I think burning keeps the rough playable, yet it also promotes bluegrass underlayers that dominate the fescue and native wispy grass, (I think).  It also knocks down the broad leaf weeds.  Prairie fire is always essential in the eco environment of mixed-tall grass prairies of the plains and the sand hills.  So, I'm thinking it is a good thing for native roughs out there, if it can be done safely, and is allowed by local ordinance.  

But, managing native rough is as interesting to me as the fairway turf.  Kill deer, other ground nesters-hunters, blue birds and many creatures have a home there, except when there gets to be too many gophers and moles.
http://www.fws.gov/jclarksalyer/Joint%20Fire%20Science%20Report/Project_Overview.htm

[Jason Blasberg]

Prairie Dunes has a regular burning schedule.

[A_Clay_Man]

Dick. I'm pretty sure the native areas at Ballyneal will be primarily untouched. The irrigation system was designed to minimize any throw off the playing surface. This is why I believe for the most part, the goal is to leave them alone. If there is some unexpected growth, it's MHO that they will be dealt with on an individual basis.
But, this is all conjecture and it will be interesting to see how everything plays out.
Afterall, the surrounds at Ballyneal are just as important as the middle of the fairway. Once again, IMO.

[Ted Kramer]

Question for Tom Doak or anyone else familiar with the project . . .
How do you think that hole will be best played to a hole cut in that location?

And congrats to all those involved, that is one gorgeous golf hole!!!

-Ted

[Tom_Doak]

Ted:  I will speak in the golfer's view perspective rather than the angle of the photo.

The back right pin is tough to get to, because the front right pin is slightly higher and an approach that's just short can get kicked to the back of the green.  There is a bit of slope behind the pin to stop the ball, but the hole often plays downwind which negates that help.

If you're strong enough, the ideal play is to go straight at the green from the tee, carrying the ridge about 100 yards short of the green where you can see a bit of yucca sticking up just above and right of the flag in the photo.  There's a bunker in the other side of the ridge there, and you'd better be sure you get over it, but if you do (and don't leak it right) you could be chipping to the flag.

If you aren't strong enough to carry that ridge from the tee, I would take an iron and lay back in the left side of the fairway close to the same bunker we were trying to carry.  As John explained, if you go right off the tee, you'll only see the top of the flag and there is very little margin for error on the second shot to stay anywhere near the hole.

Also, as John said, I wouldn't want to be the guy who had to keep the burning under control at Ballyneal.  It's very windy and it's very dry and there is a lot of ground to burn if it gets away from you.  Holes 2, 3 and 4 got burned in the brush fire last spring before the golf course put them out (our irrigation system had fortunately become operational earlier that week), so I guess we'll see first hand this year what the results could be.  But the Ballyneal roughs are very sparse (much sparser than Sand Hills) and burning them opens up a lot of ground to potential wind erosion.

[Troy Alderson]

Tom,

How deep was the disking?  Was there any chemicals used to kill unwanted weeds and turf?  Or were the native grasses allowed to fill in with the seed mix?

Troy

[Jimmy Muratt]

I just saw the following picture of the 8th green at Ballyneal on their website.  There will be some fantastic hole locations on this green, check it out:

I can imagine a hole cut in the back of the green past the hump currently behind the hole in this picture.  An aggressive approach that lands on the downslope of that ridge will most likely gallop right into that back bunker.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Jimmy, That is funny you mention that pin position and you are correct, anyone aggresively long will find that bunker, or spin off the shelf into the pit gaurding the entire right 2/3 rds of the green. That is exactly where it was my first tour around. Rupert and I stopped about 65 yards out and he threw down a ball and went str8 at the pin. He was rejected before the ball ever got to the green by the subtle continuation of the hump to the left of the pin pictured. My caddying instincts quickly took over and I said to him "No no, see how the left side is sligtly higher, you have to favor that side and approach it from there using the slope." Of course, he hands me a ball and now it's my turn. My ball missed Rupert's line by less than a yard to the left, curled up the left center and finished 7 feet away from the pin you imagine. Truely a miracle shot since we weren't playing and that was my second swing. The first, was for a free membership at the third.

[Ted Kramer]

Ted:  I will speak in the golfer's view perspective rather than the angle of the photo.

The back right pin is tough to get to, because the front right pin is slightly higher and an approach that's just short can get kicked to the back of the green.  There is a bit of slope behind the pin to stop the ball, but the hole often plays downwind which negates that help.

If you're strong enough, the ideal play is to go straight at the green from the tee, carrying the ridge about 100 yards short of the green where you can see a bit of yucca sticking up just above and right of the flag in the photo.  There's a bunker in the other side of the ridge there, and you'd better be sure you get over it, but if you do (and don't leak it right) you could be chipping to the flag.

If you aren't strong enough to carry that ridge from the tee, I would take an iron and lay back in the left side of the fairway close to the same bunker we were trying to carry.  As John explained, if you go right off the tee, you'll only see the top of the flag and there is very little margin for error on the second shot to stay anywhere near the hole.

Also, as John said, I wouldn't want to be the guy who had to keep the burning under control at Ballyneal.  It's very windy and it's very dry and there is a lot of ground to burn if it gets away from you.  Holes 2, 3 and 4 got burned in the brush fire last spring before the golf course put them out (our irrigation system had fortunately become operational earlier that week), so I guess we'll see first hand this year what the results could be.  But the Ballyneal roughs are very sparse (much sparser than Sand Hills) and burning them opens up a lot of ground to potential wind erosion.

Tom,

Thanks for the detailed repsonse.
And please accept my congratulations on what looks like truly outstanding work. I know the pics can't tell the whole story, but I'd have a tough time believing that the course isn't first class based on what I've seen. . . very, very impressive.  

-Ted