[Kyle Harris]

I spent this past week getting extremely up close and personal with a SandPro. I think my left leg will smell like exhaust for some time.  

Anyway, in evening out the sand and repairing some wash out in the bunkers at Huntingdon Valley I was able to gain a very different perspective on bunker construction.

HVCC's bunkers seem to have come in three major "eras." The first are the original William Flynn bunkers, the majority of which still exist. Several years later, a Donald Ross/JB McGovern master plan was implemented in partial form (mainly the new 14th green and 15th tee) with some bunkers being added or moved. The third were the additions by long time Head Golf Professional Joe Kirkwood in the 40's.

The Flynn bunkers, in my opinion, have A LOT of character. They are deep and cavernous - yet simple in shape, no capes and bays for the most part. A lot of the interest in the bunkering lies in the variance in their slopes on the bunker floor. These bunker floors have movement in them like some greens - which is very hard to notice because of the nature of a sandy lie, but nonetheless they are present and affect the next shot immeasurably. This also seems similar to the MO of the Raynor/Banks style with simple geometric shapes containing a lot of movement and internal contour.

Another interesting feature of the Flynn bunkers are how they integrate with the surrounds. From above, it's almost as if Flynn "smeared" the bunker across the landscape, allowing for the fairway to run into the bunker and the "joint" of the bunker/fairway/green complex to mesh seemlessly. This is in stark contrast to the presentation I've found on a lot of Ross courses, where the bunkers - while situated in respect to the shot similarly - are a bit more "independent" of the other features. It's interesting, to me, to view the 14th and 15th greens at HVCC to see this contrast in presentation.

Flynn also seemed to design catch areas in the bunkers for sand wash out, allowing the superintendent to simply push the same back up to the top of the bunker without worrying about rectifying any bunker edges. Interestingly, this is well implemented because of above regarding the "smearing" of the bunker across the landscape. The greater scale of the bunkers all for the catch areas to exist.

Paging Wayne Morrison: Could this be the influence of Howard Toomey? These bunkers are EXTREMELY well engineered.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

Your mention of the internal contouring of the bunkers is something that was very evident in the bunkers of Merion.  Much has been made here of the surrounds in past discussions, but the internal slopes to me is what made those bunkers so splendidly distinctive in the past.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Past tense? Should I start reading those Merion bunker threads? Seems to me the common link is one William Flynn.

[TEPaul]

Kyle:

I could be wrong but I think the 15th green and its bunkering is Flynn (with maybe a little in-house reworking), not Ross. I believe Ross changed the tee end of #15 and not the green-end. Also, Fjynn's modus, in most all cases, particularly around here, was to construct to design plans pretty closely and carefully and with their own crew (some of their crew here lived on their farm in Montgomery Co). In most all cases, the crews used by Ross particularly on redesign but probably new construction too were probably just picked up somehow even with local oversight who may not have been all that familiar working with Ross.

It's probably also the time once again to contact Ron Prichard and get more on his take of the basic bunkering style that first emanated out of Merion East. This is apparently something he was trying to get across the other day. Ron seems to think that most all of us sort of misread or misunderstand the significance of this seemingly unique bunker style. Although obviously some on here may not be aware of it or willing to admit it, it's probably true to say that Ron knows a lot more about the details of this kind of thing than we do.  

Jim Wagner also had a thing or two to say the other day about the style of some of the old bunkering and some of the old green-end shapiing (tying in or lack of it) particularly around greens that I'd like to ask him about again. Some of the restoration guys definitely look at some of this old stuff from a different perspective than most of us on here do. I'm going to ask him about it again. Seems to me they look at it in the context of its era and the evolution of it all more comprehensively than we do.

The more I talk to these guys who do this stuff the more it's occuring to me that they see these things (and appreciate them) in the context of the evolution of it all and particularly the reasons for the evolutionary changes and shifts.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

I could be wrong but I think the 15th green and its bunkering is Flynn (with maybe a little in-house reworking), not Ross. I believe Ross changed the tee end of #15 and not the green-end. Also, Fjynn's modus, in most all cases, particularly around here, was to construct to design plans pretty closely and carefully and with their own crew (some of their crew here lived on their farm in Montgomery Co). In most all cases, the crews used by Ross particularly on redesign but probably new construction too were probably just picked up somehow even with local oversight who may not have been all that familiar working with Ross.

Tom,

I'll clarify. The 14th green and the 15th tee were from the Ross changes. The bunkering around 14 green was the Ross stuff I was alluding to, and to see the bunkering on 15 is the contrast I was talking about.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I'll clarify. The 14th green and the 15th tee were from the Ross changes. The bunkering around 14 green was the Ross stuff."

Kyle:

That's what I was saying. It seems there may be some misunderstanding on who did that bunker behind #14 (which has recently been removed). We always thought it was Kirkwood's but apparently now it appears it may've been Ross. Whoever did it, it was without doubt one of the worst looking bunkers (in a natural sense) I've ever seen. It was almost the definition of how not to build a bunker in the more naturalistic "Golden Age". Kirkwood also did some "scalloping" around a green or two which never looked too good to me.

 

[Kyle Harris]

I know what you mean with the scalloping, especially prevelant on the 2nd and 3rd holes.

The Kirkwood bunkers all seem to be cut into small mounds. There's a bunch on the 4th hole intermingled with the larger Flynn bunkers that seem to just be catch areas for an overly hooked shot to prevent them from rolling down the hill.

That bunker behind the 14th is a mystery to me as well. It was very similar to the ones to the left of the 10th green/approach which don't appear on any Flynn plan I've seen for the hole. I'm not sure if they were Kirkwood or Ross, but the simplicity and "shaping" seem to indicate Kirkwood.

[TEPaul]

"That bunker behind the 14th is a mystery to me as well. It was very similar to the ones to the left of the 10th green/approach which don't appear on any Flynn plan I've seen for the hole. I'm not sure if they were Kirkwood or Ross, but the simplicity and "shaping" seem to indicate Kirkwood."

Kyle:

I'm not sure what you mean by that on #10. I don't think I've ever seen a green-side bunker quite like that one that used to be behind the 14th.

We were looking at some of the greens at HVGC the other day as far as how they were basic cut and fill (leveling) into the sides of hills. In that sense the basic method is the same on HVGC's #2, #3, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #12 (even Ross's #14), #15, #16, #18. They're all basically the same of cutting into the hill, using that fill to level a green with a drop-off on the low side (generally with bunkering on both the high cut side (or a drainage swale) and bunkering on the low fill side.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

The one on 14 was cut into a mound with a very small (almost nonexistant) floor and it was all face. The ones on 10, to the left, are similar, just with more floor to them.

Same with the two on the 4th hole I mentioned - just gouged into a small mound or slope.

Good that you mentioned the greens, especially the 9th green - which is about as "prototypical" of a Flynn green as I've seen. What's amazing about the cut and fill procedure is how Flynn/Toomey were able to match the grades and slopes from the cuts and fills with the surrounding terrain.

You actually have to convince yourself it's not natural.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

Good to see you the other day although hard to recognize in your bundle of clothes.  I'm sure the work you're doing is a great learning process and having Scott Anderson as your mentor has got to be a real treat.

Kirkwood built the bunker behind 14 green (the half-moon bunker I always called it).  It was hideous and I'm glad it was removed.  Speaking with Linc Roden, he was unsure how he felt about its removal until I told him it wasn't Ross and then he was relieved.  Kirkwood also raised the left portions of 2 and 3 greens, the second with that hideous scalloped edge.  Kirkwood may have been one of the great trick shot artists, but he sure was a crappy architect.  The approach shot demands on holes 2 and 3 were seriously compromised by his raising the left sides.  Good to hear that their restoration is on the books.

The only Ross/McGovern that was implemented was the moving of the 14th green, which enabled the construction of new tees on 15.  Other substantial changes that were planned were fortunately left undone.

As to Flynn's internal contours of bunkers, this is one of the factors I cited in trying to get Mark Fine to understand a bit better how Flynn's bunkers were much more sophisticated than most, even he who has seen more Flynn courses than just about anyone, miss out on.  Flynn did it at many courses and it is a fascinating feature.  Kyle, you mentioned that Raynor and Banks also had simple outlines (the simplest in most cases) but I do not remember them using internal contouring at all, at least not systematically.  Their greenside bunker floors tended to be dead flat with steep upslopes towards the green.  I haven't seen all that many of their courses, the ones I have all seemed to have this feature.

The cut and fill techniques on Flynn greens is an outstanding and recognizable feature.  The way the greens are tied into the surroundings really hide the technique.  Tom showed me this years ago and it really does eliminate the man-made look of the architecture for the most part.  It is something that Flynn did that added upfront construction expense but was intended to provide two results; firstly a natural appearance and secondly ease of maintenance and reduced maintenance costs over time.  The drawing out of lines and matching slopes, both near and far (Cascades is an excellent example of integrating slopes with the slopes of hills in the distance) was part of his naturalism style.  You not only have interesting shots but with a natural look and feel to the grounds.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

It was actually your PM to me the other day that prompted this thread - just got to it now though. Thanks for your insight. I am hoping Scott May is reading as I am sure the bunkers at Manny's are similar in construction.

Do you know what Toomey's involvement was, if any?

[wsmorrison]

We know that Toomey did NO design work at all.  Only Flynn was a principal in the design side during the late 1920s.  Toomey was Flynn's partner in Toomey and Flynn, Contracting Engineers. It is likely that he oversaw the construction techniques and piping planning where the firm was employed.  Curiously there are no photographs or any useful information on Howard C. Toomey.  Flynn's daughter thought very highly of him.  He was some 12 years older than Flynn.  When he was on his last legs he told Flynn that he would have to do the drinking for the firm now.  Toomey died in 1933.

[TEPaul]

"Good that you mentioned the greens, especially the 9th green - which is about as "prototypical" of a Flynn green as I've seen. What's amazing about the cut and fill procedure is how Flynn/Toomey were able to match the grades and slopes from the cuts and fills with the surrounding terrain.

You actually have to convince yourself it's not natural."

Kyle:

Oh I'd never say that. If one's not specifically looking at or for that it may not occur to you but if one is dedicatedly looking at the landforms and elevations out to any side of those green sites and imagining the way the natural landforms were before a golf course was built there it can't possibly be missed. The point is it's obviously done in such a way that most people don't think of what I just said or that it never seems to immediately occur to anyone unless you consciously decide to look to various sides to try to pick up what was obviously not touched and what was. In this sense the architecture is different than the feeling you get when you first look at the Road Hole Green at NGLA. Even if you aren't thinking about it there's no question at all it should occur to anyone who first sees that green that it was totally manufactured. The same is true of the next green-site---eg The Bottle Hole's. In my opinion, no one could possibly look at that the first time and not realize it was very much manufactured into what was the original landform.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
You and I are on the same page about Flynn's internal bunker contouring.  But Flynn was not alone with that aspect of bunker design.  Mackenzie and others did this as well.  

I just saw Tom Paul at Pine Valley.  We chatted for a bit but both were there with other guys for dinner.  Also met John Yerger.  Great guy.  

[TEPaul]

Kyle:

If you want a really good example of how Flynn did cutting and filling to level things out just enough for golf that seems pretty natural it would be the 7th hole from probably 120-150 yards and on in. Take a look way to the right and to the left of that fairway and green from about 120-150 yards on in and you can't miss it. But the point is unless someone dedicately looks at that entire area for that they'd probably never think of it. That's the cleverness of a good deal of Flynn architecture.

Or alternatively, imagine the great 14th hole of Shinnecock from about 100 yards out and past the green. Do you think that topography looked like that before he got there? No way. Look at the 18th at Shinny sometime with that in mind. Unless you looked at the preconstruction topo lines you wouldn't pick up on it unless you were consciously looking for it.

With this particular subject in mind the green site that just amazes me is PVGC's #1. I think from maybe 50-75 yards out and all the way to the back of the green that entire landform as it is today just has to be completely manufactured up but I'm still not sure just how much. The preconstruction topo lines do show that kind of basic formation but there's no contour lines out to the sides, and I don't understand why----eg if it was basically the same elevation or whether they just weren't drawn in in that corner for some reason. I guess the simplest way to tell would be to check the pre-construction elevation of the entire 2nd tee area against what the 1st green site elevation was preconstruction. (Unfortunately I forgot to do that the other day). If it was basically the same or even just one contour line (5 ft) then you know the entire first green from about 50-75 yards and on in was built way up because I sure do know the teeing area and the first part of #2 wasn't dropped.  

But if it was built up as much as I think it was you also have got to look around to figure out where they got all that fill. The massive bunker area from way out towards the green on the right seems to be definitely one place they got the fill.

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

Glad you had a good time at Pine Valley.  The weather wasn't great, but its always a fine time there.  John Yerger is an excellent fellow and a terrific researcher.  Is the Colt routing plan on display somewhere?  I'll be going over pretty soon and hope to see it on a wall somewhere at the club.  Tom Paul has been doing some great research on the architectural evolution of Pine Valley.  I am certain there isn't anyone alive today who knows as much as he does about that golf course.  What a place!

[Troy Alderson]

The more I talk to these guys who do this stuff the more it's occuring to me that they see these things (and appreciate them) in the context of the evolution of it all and particularly the reasons for the evolutionary changes and shifts.

Tom,

Interesting that you mention evolution in regards to the golf course.  To my understanding, Pac Dunes was designed with the same idea, let the golf course evolve over time.  Why do we fight mother nature with golf course maintenance.  In the PNW, poa annua has taken over the golf courses west of the Cascades so the superintendents manage for it instead of fighting it.  Regarding golf course architecture, let the bunker edges move, let the bunker edge determine where it will be.  We must define bunker edges to a point to differentiate between in the hazard and out, but do not over do it.  This can apply to tee, fairway, and green edges, let them move naturally.  Superintendents (me) pull their hair out over scalped edges.  I have lightened up though.  Any thoughts?

Troy Alderson

[TEPaul]

Troy:

When I menitoned evolution above I wasn't talking about the evolution of A golf course, I was talking about the evolution of golf course architecture generally speaking. The art form is really only about 150 years old and it's entire evolution through that time in philosophies, types, styles, influences, agronomy, perceptions etc, etc, is pretty fascinating, to say the least. It's come a long, long way. But having come such a long way I think it's also pretty interesting that we are now in perhaps the first renaissance in golf architecture's history.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
If you mean the one stick routing on display, yes it is there.  I love that place, inside and out.  We had a great two days.  

[TEPaul]

No, Wayne means the Colt design scheme that was bought on eBay and is now in the hands of PVGC. The so-called "stick" routing that was for years in the super's office is now hanging in the small corridor in the clubhouse's front room next to the telephones.

Wayne, the Colt plan is not on display and is going to be worked on to remove all the mold and such on it for its own preservation.

About an hour before going down there I wrote "provenances" (and explanations) for the "stick" routing and the so-called "blue/red" routing that's been hanging in the clubhouse for years and took them down there on Wednesday and showed them to Mayor Ott. Mayor Ott proclaimed that in his opinion both "provenances" were no better than "C minuses"---- so I guess I'll be rewriting them.  

The only thing I could say in my defense is I wrote them pretty fast and I also wrote them with some definite melodrama in mind---probably not a good idea.  

[wsmorrison]

Did the Mayor make you stay after class and clap the erasers?  

At least you get a second chance at getting those provenances correct and without melodrama.  That's a great idea, there should be a description that will give members and visitors an idea of what they're looking at.  

BTW did you complete the provenance for the Locust Valley course?   You've got a nice little cottage industry (er chicken coop industry) going writing these important provenances.

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