Give pro's a free drop from fairway divots

[John_Cullum]

I don't recall Tiger complaining about getting to lift his muddy ball from the 10th fairway last year when play got suspended for darkness. He got a good break last year.

He got a bad break this year. Tiger's mojo is off this week. He probabaly won't win. The guy who wins gets the good breaks.

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, what major pro tournament was played at PV or Friar's Head?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam,

On Bermuda fairways replacing the divot isn't always possible or recommended.   Most of them are sand filled, so the problem remains until the grass has grown back in.

And, an uneven application of sand can create a micro contour.

Should golfers be permitted relief from them ?
After all, it was a divot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, what major pro tournament was played at PV or Friar's Head?

The GAP Open at Pine Valley.

[Justin_Zook]

Forget the rule for a minute.

Everyone makes divots.  It's his or her responsibility to replace the divot to his or her best ability.  Of course, sometimes the divot flies into a million pieces and there is just nothing you can do.  

After such measures are taken, it is the greenskeeper's responsibility to prepare the divot in such a way that it heals so that its as if the divot was never made.  

To Tiger's situation, given the fact that the lie was on a down slope, it is possible that after the divot was properly filled with mix, some rain came along and washed out the back end of the divot, perhaps the part that Tiger played out of.  It really is possible that everyone did their jobs and its just unfortunate that it happened.  

So to the rule.  As any rule change may do, one must really examine what the effects of the rule change might be.  Not only in this issue but others.  It is similar to common law in our Judicial system.

In this case.  Don't change it.  If these guys are the best in the world, they should be able to at least do something productive with the ball.  Bad break Tiger, you still are ridiculously good, but oh well, you'll get it back (and in this case, HE GOT IT BACK ON THE HOLE BEFORE.)

The fairness issue is always a bad one to discuss.  Is it fair that DiMarco put his ball in perfect position on 16 last year only to watch a ball that was in an absolutely awful position drop and his miss?  

I think we've all been pretty pissed off when our ball comes to lie in the grand canyon of divots.  But, I bet we all were pretty happy when our ball skipped off the sprinkler-head onto the green on a par 5.  

There are ebbs and flows.  Sometime in the future, someone is going to go up against Tiger and find their ball in a divot, and it'll cost them a tournament.  

But really, are we just complaining about this because its Tiger?  Do you think you'd really give a scheiss if it was some guy who missed the cut by 9 shots?  

Tiger is in great position.  If you seen anything of how he's playing, he's playing really really really good.  His iron game has been on point and his driver, not so bad.  His putting has been average, some good some bad.  There really isn't any reason why he couldn't be 6 or 7 under right now.  

I see the potential for Tiger to light it up with some H2O2 (rocket fuel) today.  

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, what major pro tournament was played at PV or Friar's Head?

The GAP Open at Pine Valley.

LOL

[redanman]

(Insert yawning smilie)
Bottom line

Tiger lost his cool and blew the shot.  He certainly could have done a better mental and certainly physical job.  He blew it.




Real reason for this post?

It takes some serious game to win the GAP Open, don't make fun of it.  Bring your best pros from the south and watch them cry and moan.

[TEPaul]

"So to the rule.  As any rule change may do, one must really examine what the effects of the rule change might be.  Not only in this issue but others.  It is similar to common law in our Judicial system."

Justin:

You do have the first part of that right but not the second part. The Rules of Golf are not exactly similar to common law in our judicial system, and they never were supposed to be.

The basic precept or philosophy of our common and criminal law is each case is determined and adjudicated on its own merits as applied to the law.

In golf the basic system of justice (equity) is what's called "like situations shall be treated alike".

There is a very good and fundamental reason golf's rules are based on that so-called unique system of justice and that is because there's almost never a referee present to observe and rule on these facts.

So, consequently, the real reason the Rules would never allow relief from divots is because it would be virtually impossible to tell with assurance in some cases if a ball was or was not in a divot. So the obvious policy is simply to never consider relief for such a thing.

[Tom Zeni]

I agree that this can't be made to work in reality. And anytime you permit a player to place his hands on the ball, they're going to score better. If Craig Stadler can get a 2 stroke penalty for placing down a towel, and thereby improving his lie, what would taking the ball from a divot be?

No, the rule we all have, is the correct one:
"It's a rub of the green."

[TEPaul]

Tony:

No, a ball coming to rest in a divot is not "rub of the green". All the Rules philosophers on here should just take the time to read the section in the Rules called "Definitions".

The Definition of "Rub of the Green" is when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any "Outside Agency". A divot is most certainly not an "Outside Agency".

Unfortunately, too many golfers think "rub of the green" is completely synonymous with bad luck. It is not. Bad luck is just bad luck, nothing more, and having one's ball come to rest in a divot is nothing more than bad luck. Relief will never be granted in golf from "bad luck", thankfully.  

[Tom Zeni]

Thanks for that correction.

[Doug Siebert]

Bob Huntley -- since you brought up life, golf and fairness, of course they often are not fair.  But we owe our wonderful lives in part to people who gave their blood to make things more fair.   It's cavalier to say "it's unfair, get used to it."  Sit back and take it?  Is that how the people on this board approach life?  No way.  We try to make life better.    

To what exactly are you referring to here?  Are you saying that those who went off to fight in WW II and didn't come back did so to make our lives more fair?  Was that the rallying cry for the troops in WW II, "let's make the world more fair"  WTF are you talking about?!

If you really think it would make life better to get relief from divots, you must have a pretty cushy life to be that far down the list.  I have some suggestions for some other unfair stuff on golf courses you may wish to adjust the rules for, complete with the excuses to justify them:

1. areas that should be GUR but aren't marked as such (damn lazy super, can't he see that someone slammed the brakes on their cart here a week ago and the grass isn't quite healed yet)

2. areas of grass that are taller than surrounding areas (damn lazy college student driving the mower while talking on his cellphone missed a spot)

3. spike marks, scuff marks, weeds, pock marks from people carelessly dropping the flag, etc. on the green (why doesn't this green look like those on TV)

4. internal OB markers (if the course was routed properly this wouldn't be necessary)

5. rocks and stumps left in the rough because they would cost too much to remove (if Fazio had built this course they wouldn't be there)

6. shots from under trees where branches affect your backswing (why aren't the low branches trimmed off like at ANGC)

7. misclubbing due to mismarked sprinkler heads (this kind of thing would never happen to Tiger)

8. missing a green in an area where grandstands would be if a PGA event was taking place that day (the pros wouldn't have to play from this crazy spot, I should get some cushy drop area like them)


There, that'll get you started.  Perhaps you can try to talk Bush into reinstituting the draft so we can go to war to more fairness and include this list amongst the other things we give our blood for to make life more fair.

[ed_getka]

Jim,
   The more you go on about this, the more I wonder why you play golf. It seems like it must make you miserable.
   Your sit back and take it line leads me to believe you haven't met many people from this site. From all the guys I have met here I would say you missed the mark by a mile.
   You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and we are to ours. We are on opposite sides of the issue, such is life.

[Jim Nugent]

Ed, I've met no one from this site.  Last time I played golf was 1998.  Health and other circumstances came up.  

Golf never made me miserable.  I loved to play.  Would be real fun to tee it up again.  I shudder to imagine what my game would look like now.  But a little practice would probably make things decent.  Would really enjoy seeing how my shots go with the new balls and clubs.  

Most people who responded to this thread disagree with me.  That's fine.  I don't see the grave threat to golf, golf course architecture, and life itself that some of you perceive.  

I think the best point against my suggestion is that it might get abused.  Every other shot in the fairway, a player may claim as a divot.  My sense is that wouldn't happen.  Easy way to find out.  But few of you who posted here are willing to try that.  Defenders of tradition?  

I don't like being accused of cheating.  I do think some of golf's rules are ridiculous and should be changed.  The scorecard rule, ala DiVicenzo and Pung, is one.  The "Stadler" rule is another.  

The "life is unfair, get used to it" line struck me as ridiculous, and not representative of how anyone here really thinks.  

[ed_getka]

Jim,
   Sorry to hear you haven't been able to play in a while. Two of my great loves are running and golf. I can't run anymore because of some messed up Achilles tendons, and  I can't imagine what I would do if I lost golf too.
    I certainly would never call anyone a cheater for voicing the opinion you did but I just consider getting a drop from a divot contrary to the spirit of the game. And no that is not tradition speaking. What happened to Stadler was completely ridiculous IMO, he was just trying to keep his pants dry.
   The problem with the free drop and things like that is that it just leads to golf being boring. The ultimate result to go to absurd lengths is that a golf course is flat, the boundary lines are straight, the greens are flat, the bunkers are a uniform depth and exactly the same consistency, etc... I doubt many here would be interested in playing that game.
    I hope you have a chance to get out and start playing the game again, and meet some of the guys here, it has added immeasurably to my enjoyment of the game.

[Dan King]

Jeff_Fortson writes:
Nowehere do the Rules address "fairways" or the importance of hitting said "fairways".  Taking relief from cart paths, GUR, or casual water can be taken anywhere through the green as long as it's legitimate. 

While technically this is true, the rules of golf do refer to fairways without calling them fairways.

The one I'm aware of, there may be more, under local rules:

4. Temporary Conditions — Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of Course
  a. Lifting an Embedded Ball, Cleaning
Temporary conditions that might interfere with proper playing of the game, including mud and extreme wetness, warranting relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the green or permitting lifting, cleaning and replacing a ball anywhere through the green or on a closely mown area through the green.

(Underlining added by me)

Jim Nugent writes:
The "life is unfair, get used to it" line struck me as ridiculous, and not representative of how anyone here really thinks. 

It's not so much just to accept the unfairness, but rather the inherent unfairness in the game is one of the things that make it interesting. It isn't just about the shots, but also about how you handle the good and the bad breaks that will happen. When you stripe a ball down the middle of the fairway, there is a good chance you will get a good lie, but there is no guarantee. every so often you are going to be screwed through no fault of your own. Similarly, when you hit a bad shot, on occasion you will be rewarded. Golf is a game that will test your reaction to both circumstances.

Eliminate good and bad luck from the game and it will only be about the shots. There will then be no reason to bother playing it on a golf course.

The PGA Tour has tried hard to eliminate luck from the game. Eventually they will succeed and it will be an even more boring game than the one I currently nap to. Until then, Tiger Woods was faced with that wonderful test in golf that had nothing to do with the quality of the shot he hit.

And he failed.

Cheers,
Dan

On the golf course, a man may be the dogged victim of inexorable fate, be struck down by an appalling stroke of tragedy, become the hero of unbelievable melodrama, or the clown in a side-splitting comedy.
  --Robert Jones

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff_Fortson writes:
Nowehere do the Rules address "fairways" or the importance of hitting said "fairways".  Taking relief from cart paths, GUR, or casual water can be taken anywhere through the green as long as it's legitimate. 

While technically this is true, the rules of golf do refer to fairways without calling them fairways.

The one I'm aware of, there may be more, under local rules:

4. Temporary Conditions — Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of Course
  a. Lifting an Embedded Ball, Cleaning
Temporary conditions that might interfere with proper playing of the game, including mud and extreme wetness, warranting relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the green or permitting lifting, cleaning and replacing a ball anywhere through the green or on a closely mown area through the green.

(Underlining added by me)

Dan,

True.  But even you have to admit that it is suggested in the Local Rules section.  It isn't a part of the Rules proper.  


Jeff F.

[David Kelly]

I think the funniest part of the premise for this thread is that because it happened to Tiger the rule needs to be changed.  

F___ the other million guys who had this happen to them in the course of their round.  Tiger played a bad shot from a divot so change the rule!

[Dan King]

Jeff_Fortson writes:
True.  But even you have to admit that it is suggested in the Local Rules section.  It isn't a part of the Rules proper.

I gotta admit nothing!

In the Rules proper:

25-2 Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green."Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

(Underline added by me)

Cheers,
Dan King

It's a tan like mine. It tells you the player is spending a lot of time out on the fairway and the greens - and not in the trees.
 --Lee Trevino (on the sign of a good golfer)

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff_Fortson writes:
True.  But even you have to admit that it is suggested in the Local Rules section.  It isn't a part of the Rules proper.

I gotta admit nothing!

In the Rules proper:

25-2 Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green."Closely mown area" means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

(Underline added by me)

Cheers,
Dan King

It's a tan like mine. It tells you the player is spending a lot of time out on the fairway and the greens - and not in the trees.
 --Lee Trevino (on the sign of a good golfer)

I stand corrected.  However, let's take a look at this thread and how your correction of "fairway" being addressed in the rule book affects the issue of divots?  It doesn't.


Jeff F.

[Jim Nugent]

I think the funniest part of the premise for this thread is that because it happened to Tiger the rule needs to be changed.  

F___ the other million guys who had this happen to them in the course of their round.  Tiger played a bad shot from a divot so change the rule!

Not so, David.  That was just a recent, dramatic example.  I've always thought this.  

That embedded ball rule, though not identical, is similar to the reasoning behind my proposed divot rule.  

[Dan King]

Jim Nugent writes:
That embedded ball rule, though not identical, is similar to the reasoning behind my proposed divot rule. 

I'm guessing we are talking divot holes not the actual divot.

I've always thought the embedded ball rule is a bad rule. Either embedded balls deserve relief or they don't. It shouldn't just be those in the short grass get the relief. I assume this was done only because it is easier to tell if a ball is embedded in short grass.

Still I think in stroke play anytime you touch your golf ball it should cost you a stroke. Anytime in match play it should be loss of hole. The game was meant to be played with clubs ill adapted for the task, not hands.

Ball embedded in soft ground, you can dig it out with your hand, just it will cost you a stroke or loss of hole. Simple game only needs simple solutions.

Dan King

It consists in pitting little balls into little holes with instruments ill adapted to the purpose.
 --Horace Hutchinson

[Tags:]

Tags: