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Sean_Tully

Devils ...hole
« on: March 06, 2006, 01:57:15 PM »
In going through some of the old magazines online at the USGA website I found an interesting photo(circa 1914) of the 10th hole at Pine Valley that does not show the DA. There is a bunker on the left that raps around the front left portion of the green and a little more natural looking bunker on the right but it was no ...hole.  It actually appears to be right of the current location for the DA. Did the bunker evolve from that right hand bunker, or was it added later?

I'm not that familiar with the course beyond the usual appreciation for its architecture. If someone wants to post the pic I can email it to them and go from there. It is wierd looking at the course as it is a very early pic that shows how open the course was.

Tully
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JESII

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2006, 02:01:01 PM »
Sean,

I am certain you will get your answer to this because a couple of the guys are very familiar with PV's history, but I must ask....If that bunker was not there when Crump died, and plans for it cannot be found in his notes, should it be removed? Pat Mucci?  ;D
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wsmorrison

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2006, 02:19:20 PM »
I don't believe it is known when that bunker was put in or by whom.  Here's an early photo showing the green:



An aerial photograph I have from 1923 doesn't appear to show the DA bunker fronting 10 green.  I don't think the bunker evolved but instead was constructed.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 02:21:12 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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Joel_Stewart

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2006, 02:24:33 PM »
The interesting thing I've always noticed about that bunker is nobody evers hits into it.   I've played there a number of times and I've never seen anyone remotely close.   I'd be interested to see if Tom Paul or Pat Mucci has ever seen anyone hit into it?
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Ian Andrew

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2006, 02:25:54 PM »
I swear I can see it on the aerial view (perspective view) of the course that is from 1924.
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wsmorrison

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2006, 02:35:11 PM »
Here's another early view of the green:



Ian,

I have a partial 1924 aerial photograph, but the 10th hole isn't on it.
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Sean_Tully

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2006, 02:39:21 PM »
Wayne that is it!

I found it an advert from around 1914. Very cool picture.
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wsmorrison

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2006, 02:41:24 PM »
I knew I had another one.  Glad to oblige, Sean.  I didn't know the date of the photo.  Thanks for letting me know.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 02:41:44 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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mike_malone

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2006, 03:00:40 PM »
 What a scuzzy lookin' course. Get rid of that bunker !!! It takes away the only runup option.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 03:03:00 PM by mayday_malone »
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AKA Mayday

Evan Fleisher

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2006, 03:07:41 PM »
Quote from: Joel_Stewart on March 06, 2006, 02:24:33 PM
The interesting thing I've always noticed about that bunker is nobody evers hits into it.   I've played there a number of times and I've never seen anyone remotely close.   I'd be interested to see if Tom Paul or Pat Mucci has ever seen anyone hit into it?

Paging Tommy Naccarato to the white cortesy phone...
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PThomas

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2006, 04:47:13 PM »
that can't be a picture of PV...there's not many trees in it!
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Bruce Katona

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2006, 05:16:09 PM »
On my one and only visit, my host hit into the DA and was "Pine Valleyed"- as we were playing 2 best balls of each foursome, he picked up after three attempts to get out.
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Would you hold it near as it were your own....."
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Mike Hendren

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2006, 05:31:22 PM »




Maybe you guys should lay off Augusta National Golf Club.

Mike
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 05:32:57 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

TEPaul

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2006, 07:18:04 PM »
That first photo above is very early in the construction of Pine Valley, probably early 1914. Actually a fair amount of earth was removed between the tee and the green probably around 1922. There was also a considerable earth sliding problem in that area and at the beginning of #18 due to sheet water. A certain amount of terracing was required in the late 1920s. Also that flashed up front bunker could not be stabilzed properly and was eventually grassed down a good deal.

As far as when the DA appeared or who did it and why I wish I could tell you. I've never found anything conclusive on that, just various conjecture. Maybe it just ought to remain that way.  ;)

But probably the most reliable story I know is in the mid 1920s the turf on the green wasn't doing so good and so pro/clubmaker/superintendent Jim Govan threw a whole lot of super, SUPER, spicy, SPICY, hot, HOT crushed Maryland Crab meal on that green, and Yep, you guessed right, it burned that green a new______!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 07:27:29 PM by TEPaul »
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2006, 07:31:01 PM »
Mike Hendren,

Good Point.  I like to think I've been fair and balanced in speaking out about way too many trees at both.

Not that either one particularly cares what I think.   :-X ;D
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 07:35:48 PM by Mike Cirba »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2006, 07:35:04 PM »
Sean, et al,

Since this is one of the twenty hazards in Mark Fine's and Forrest Richardson's book, can we defer discussion of it until it takes its turn at bat in the "top 20 hazards" exercise.

Thanks.
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Dave Bourgeois

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2006, 08:43:28 PM »
Wow, is there any documentation on how many trees were planted after the initial construction?  

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TEPaul

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2006, 09:38:24 PM »
"Wow, is there any documentation on how many trees were planted after the initial construction?"

Yes, there is. Between 3,000-5,000 PER YEAR between 1927 and 1934. Would any of you architectural geniuses like to guess why, or would you rather just listien to your own unsubstantiative opinions over and over again?  ;)  
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Robert Thompson

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2006, 10:08:13 PM »
Cranky Tom Paul!  :D

Because of land stabilization, Tom?
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cary lichtenstein

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2006, 10:29:04 PM »
Holmes

"Well, I do declare, there appears to have been a massive earth moment on this hole"

Watson

"Ah, Mr. Holmes are you saying that this hole, this course, this #1 of all time is not the birth of minialism"

Holmes

"Watson, don't tell anybody, especially those busybodies at Golf Club Atlas"
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 10:30:36 PM by cary lichtenstein »
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

redanman

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2006, 10:35:34 PM »
In fairness to the valley, #10 doesn't look like this now.  



I'm guessing this is about 8-10 years ago.



#12?  Different story.  I'll find a current one of #10 and post it.  Trees are definitely out on #10, especially on hte #18 side (left).
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Mike Hendren

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2006, 10:44:38 AM »
redanman,

Good point re #10.  I look forward to a recent photo.

Mike Cirba,

A tree is a tree whether it's planted or permitted to grow.  The thing that strikes me about both Pine Valley and Augusta National Golf Club is how marvelous both courses were AND are.  

Quote
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But I'm as good once as I ever was.
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sean_Tully

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2006, 10:31:34 PM »
Bringing this back up as I have some pretty cool pics and some harder evidence to the time frame of the creation of the DA. The earliest photo that I found that shows it is from 1926 and another from 1929 that shows that it had already gotten deeper.

The other photos are interesting as well!

PineValley

Tully
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Troy Alderson

Re:Devils ...hole
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2006, 10:45:20 PM »
Sean,

From the photos, it looks like the DA did evolve over time like most golf courses.  It appears to have gotten deeper and deeper over time and the grass has appeared to grow into the bunker more and more as agronomy practices have improved.  Great photos of what golf was like back then, if only the golfing public knew what they were missing.

Troy
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