[Matt_Ward]

THOMAS PROPOSES TEN CLUB SOLUTION FOR TOUR

Limiting club selection and focus on course set up can help allay technology fears


April 2006 Media Update
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Frank Thomas, technical director of the USGA for a quarter century today proposed in the New York Times Op-Ed section that a ten club limit for Tour play in combination with attention to course set up may be the solution to the fears that technology is spoiling the game.

“The idea of limiting the elite players to 10 clubs will address the imbalance that the game is experiencing at its top level and will alleviate the need for different equipment standards with no need to adopt different equipment rules for the elite player,” said Thomas.

In his article, Thomas calls for a balance of all the skills that make up the game of golf: power, precision, finesse and touch. By purely lengthening courses, such as at this week’s Masters, Thomas believes that officials are just playing into the hands of the long hitters.

A 10-club rule would force Tour players to demonstrate their full array of skills and would, Thomas believes, add to the entertainment value of the Tour.

Click here for the full article on Frankly Golf or visit the New York Times Op-Ed Section by clicking here

[JESII]

Matt,

I don't think you attached the link.


Interesting concept though. Does anyone think the average viewer will be more entertained by slightly manufactured shots by the guys on TV than the current scenario?

[tlavin]

Leave it to a technology guy to conclude that the "fix" is not to harness the technology.

[Brent Hutto]

So give them a driver and ball that they can hit 300 yards in the air, give them a lob wedge with square grooves that can stop a 100-yard shot from the deepest rough on a firm green, give them a broomhandle putter if they have the yips.

But then after you've given them those three clubs, limit the remainder of the bag to just seven more assorted sticks rather than the current eleven. That'll really slow them down.

Idiotic.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Leave it to a technology guy to conclude that the "fix" is not to harness the technology.

I've got to agree with you on that.

And, the way technology is going, you'll only need three clubs anyway, driver, wedge and putter.

[Tony Ristola]

Made this "idiotic" claim for a few years.

Don't just put a limit on the number of clubs, but marry it with rolling the ball back.
With yardage guides, hybrids, chipping with fairway woods and hybrids, 3 wedges, two drivers, and basic Robo-golf...it makes sense if the goal of a tournament is to identify the best "golfer". The individual who can hit the greatest variety of shots and/or plan his way around the golf course.

It would introduce more half and three-quarter shots into par-3's and 4's. Short game creativity would be tested at new heights. You'd find out who the most creative wedge player really is, as guys would most likely limit themselves to one wedge between 55 and 61 degrees.

I added they shouldn't have grooves on any club either. A ball hit from the fairway without grooves spins as much as one with grooves. It's from the rough were the difference is measurably different.

I'm all for it.

Manufacturers might balk initially, but would soon realize they would sell even more equipment; a little like the paper industry realizing computers would generate greater paper sales; the opposite of many predictions. Players would need more club options depending on the course. And manufacturers would eventually sell 10 or 11 club sets for the prices they once charged for 14.

[SPDB]

His whole premise is so asinine and blind to realities that exist in other sports it's difficult to take him seriously. His whole argument is built on the fact that a reigned-in ball would do a disservice to the average player.

What disservice does Major League Baseball's rule barring anything but wooden bats do to the amateur players who use metal ones?

It is a convenient leap in logic for Thomas to say that introducing a reduced spinning/flying ball will necessarily mean that the juiced up ball will disappear from the bag of the everyday player. Although it would likely take an overhaul of the USGA rules, there is nothing that should prevent the USGA (perhaps in partnership with the PGA) from adding a rule which applies exclusively to Professional players playing in competition.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

His whole premise is so asinine and blind to realities that exist in other sports it's difficult to take him seriously. His whole argument is built on the fact that a reigned-in ball would do a disservice to the average player.

What disservice does Major League Baseball's rule barring anything but wooden bats do to the amateur players who use metal ones?

It is a convenient leap in logic for Thomas to say that introducing a reduced spinning/flying ball will necessarily mean that the juiced up ball will disappear from the bag of the everyday player. Although it would likely take an overhaul of the USGA rules, there is nothing that should prevent the USGA (perhaps in partnership with the PGA) from adding a rule which applies exclusively to Professional players playing in competition.  

SPDB,

I wonder if Thomas thinks the game was flawed or unenjoyable for the average player 20-30-40 and 50 years ago ?

You have to remember, a good deal of the quantum leap in hi-tech occured on his watch, thus I wouldn't expect him to criticize his complicity.

[Brent Hutto]

Sean,

I doubt very much you're an idiot but riddle me this...

How many strokes do you think an 8-club (or 10-club) rule would cost Tiger Woods this week at Augusta? A whole stroke per round? More than that? My guess is maybe it costs him a half-stroke (that he could possibly save by making a good par save) once or twice a round. As for actually costing him a full stroke that he can't recover from, maybe once per toonamint.

How much less pressure would there be to lengthen classic courses with the same driver, wedges and golf balls as right now but with an 8-club limit? Would having just two wedges and half as many irons make Vijay Singh (or your typical NCAA player) not try to hit the ball as far as possible?

I'm not sanguine about minor technology tweaks being able to overcome the modern power game. But I'm positive that limiting the number of clubs would have a minimal effect on elite players and actually a disproportionate effect on double-digit handicappers. The only advantge to using less clubs is that it's very amenable to being a local condition of competition with none of the side effects of making a reduce golf ball happen under the same approach.

[Chris_Clouser]

If they want to challenge the pros, only allow them four clubs.  Driver, wedge, putter and some other club of their choice.  How many clubs do they really use in a given round anyway?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brent,

I'll take the .5 stroke per round bet with Tiger.

But, you've given me the idea for a new reality show.

It's like "Name that Tune"

Except it's called, "Beat that Chump"

Contestants come forward to play Tiger.

Bettors will bid and wager on how many clubs Tiger will need to beat his opponent.

$ 100,000 says Tiger can beat him with 10 clubs

$ 250,000 says he can do it with 8 clubs, and so on and so on.

Each competitor will be different, from PGA tour Pros to legitimate high handicappers.

I'll make a fortune.
You can be my co-producer.
Make that assistant producer
Ah, make that, I'll list you in the credits.

[Brent Hutto]

I'll make a fortune.
You can be my co-producer.
Make that assistant producer
Ah, make that, I'll list you in the credits.

Anywhere in the credits will be fine as long as my points are off the front end...

[SPDB]

Pat - I agree with you regarding Thomas's article deflecting criticism from his 25 year head-in-the-sand career.

He shifts the responsibility away from the USGA and onto the PGA.

Is it time to have a parallel set of USGA rules, or an amendment which applies exclusively to Professionals?

[Russell Lo]

If a 10 club rule came around don't you think OEMs would soon come up with technological advances to bridge distance gaps? They could limit the driver's COR but other clubs would be designed to fill in the gaps.

I think it would promote walking more with the lighter weight (which would be a good thing) but don't know if it would have an effect on the distance problem which I feel is still a ball issue.

[George Pazin]

At this point, taking ANY ACTION WHATSOEVER would be a plus, in my book.

I do think it would reintroduce shotmaking, albeit not to the degree that most on here would like. Think about par 3s alone: as long as there is some variety, it would be less likely that someone would have the perfect club.

I LOVE the idea, if it's coupled with a rollback, as Tony suggests.

The best would cope quite well, the veterans would probably also cope well, I think a lot of the young robo pros would struggle (again, in a relative sense, it's not going to make them become handicap golfers, obviously).

[Doug Sobieski]

But I'm positive that limiting the number of clubs would have a minimal effect on elite players and actually a disproportionate effect on double-digit handicappers.

Brent:

I think you'll find the effect to be the opposite. The reason is mathematical. Here is an example that I always give to shorter hitters or women players that don't see much difference in how far each of their clubs go (a high proportion of women complain that all their irons seem to go the same distance).

Let's assume that Tiger hits a full-blooded driver 330, and his 60* wedge 100. That's 230 yards spread over 13 clubs, or gaps of 19.17 between clubs. Now take a 36 handicap woman that hits her driver 150 yards and her sand wedge 40 yards. Those gaps are only 9.17 between clubs. When you don't hit the ball that solidly, that's a negligible difference. Most higher handicappers wouldn't notice much of a difference if they took every other iron out of the bag. So in reality, limiting the number of clubs to 10 (or whatever) has less of an impact the shorter a player hits the ball. With 10 clubs (including the putter), Tiger's gaps become 28.75 yards (would you like to play with that kind of yardage gap!!), while Mrs. Krabbapel's become 13.75 yards (which she may notice now!).

I think you'll find that limiting the number is a measure that impacts the longest hitters the most.

Are you still positive?

[Tony Ristola]

George,

And you'd see more guys like Pavin making it on Tour, and having a shot at winning once in a while too; especially at tournaments where the wind kicks up and you've got to control trajectories. Think of The Open with 10  clubs! Now that would be a blast.

It might make the Euro Tour more interesting to watch some weeks as the weather seems to influence their events more.

PS Pat. Now I don't think it will happen, but interesting timing.

[David Kelly]

Limiting the number of clubs in the bag will hurt golf club manufacturers which is the primary reason Thomas' idea is a non-starter.  If one thing is clear it is that the USGA is loath to do anything that will negatively impact the equipment manufacturers.

[George Pazin]

But I'm positive that limiting the number of clubs would have a minimal effect on elite players and actually a disproportionate effect on double-digit handicappers.

Brent:

I think you'll find the effect to be the opposite. The reason is mathematical. Here is an example that I always give to shorter hitters or women players that don't see much difference in how far each of their clubs go (a high proportion of women complain that all their irons seem to go the same distance).

Let's assume that Tiger hits a full-blooded driver 330, and his 60* wedge 100. That's 230 yards spread over 13 clubs, or gaps of 19.17 between clubs. Now take a 36 handicap woman that hits her driver 150 yards and her sand wedge 40 yards. Those gaps are only 9.17 between clubs. When you don't hit the ball that solidly, that's a negligible difference. Most higher handicappers wouldn't notice much of a difference if they took every other iron out of the bag. So in reality, limiting the number of clubs to 10 (or whatever) has less of an impact the shorter a player hits the ball. With 10 clubs (including the putter), Tiger's gaps become 28.75 yards (would you like to play with that kind of yardage gap!!), while Mrs. Krabbapel's become 13.75 yards (which she may notice now!).

I think you'll find that limiting the number is a measure that impacts the longest hitters the most.

Are you still positive?

To further support Doug's point, I routinely play with 8-10 clubs and don't really see any difference at all when I play with a full set of 14. I don't even think it would matter if I carried 20 versus 7. I'm just not consistent enough for it to matter.

That's not to say it would have the earth shattering effect many are seeking, but it would definitely have an impact.

At the very least, it would lessen the number of occasions I hear my least favorite post round comment: "I had a perfect yardage."

Interestingly enough, by agreeing with Doug, I weakened one of my own arguments with Huck on an unrelated old thread. Hopefully he won't see this.

[Tony Ristola]

David:
I think it will increase club sales, and it will increase the service sector for club pro's.

Golfers will require more clubs, not fewer. More wedges, fairway woods and utility clubs. The manufacturers will sell the 10 set, or 12 set for less than14-clubs initially, but increase prices as time goes on. Like taking out a smoke from a pack (as they do in Europe) and keeping the prices the same.

A clever pro will realize golfers will need to test-and-bend, test-and-bend (for lofts) to get the right set-up. This service will give the club pro an advantage over the Golf Superstores as the pro could service his clients pronto.

[Mike Dasher]

Interesting discussion.  I'm a proponent of a ten club rule because I think it would tend to introduce more walking back into the game.  Eliminate four clubs from a carry bag and the percentage of overall weight loss would (or should) get the "I'd walk but I don't want to carry/drag my bag" crowd on the move.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The ten or eight club rule would hurt the average player far more than a PGA Tour player.

It's an absurd attempt to deflect the focus from the real culprit, hi-tech and it's negative impact on the game.

A competition ball, no metal heads and no graphite shafts and the game would return to its intended purpose of interfacing with the architecture, the field of play.

[Doug Siebert]

I don't think this would really change things on tour much at all.  If you have 10 clubs, let's say a longer hitting pro has something like this:

driver
putter
LW - let's call that 100 yards
SW - let's call that 125 yards
9.5 iron - 150 yards
7.5 iron - 175 yards
6 iron - 200 yards
4 iron - 225 yards
5W/hybrid - 250 yards
3W - 275 yards

10 clubs, with a 25 yard spread between them.  Today they have 15 yards between their short irons, and seem to do OK.  Heck, I've got 15 yards between a lot of my irons, and I'll go hard 8 or soft 7 or whatever to vary the distance a bit (though with less successful results than Tiger and Phil!)

Sorry, but reducing the number of clubs is pointless, because having to learn a 91% shot in addition to your 94%, 97% and 103% shots to account for a slightly larger yardage range is not going to be a significant impediment to the pros.  I don't think it would matter to amateurs either, most of them would be better off if they were forced to drop their 3W and longest iron, and if they had to drop their 9i and 7i they could just hit a soft 8 or 6.  No shotmaking required, unless you think a 3/4 swing is a 'shot'.

Fix the things that caused the problem with the game today, rather than trying to find false solutions.

[Tony Ristola]

Pat,

I don't think a ten club bag would hurt the average guy at all.
Most can't handle three wedges or hit long irons.
Most can't break 100.
It would simplify their choices.

I could see the average guy's makeup to be:

Putter
Driver: 10 to 12 degrees.
3 wood: 15-16 degrees.
19 to 21 degree utility wood.
Sand wedge: 55 to 58 degrees.
Strong PW
9-iron
7-iron
5-iron
another iron, rescue hydrid, or another utility wood.

[Doug Sobieski]

The ten or eight club rule would hurt the average player far more than a PGA Tour player.

Pat:

Let's look at this from an extreme perspective. Would you agree that if a player were only allowed 4 clubs, it would be more difficult for a Tour player to score since there would be greater gaps between clubs? If you are nodding in agreement, it seems that we'd agree that the larger gaps between clubs, the harder it is to score. Therefore, with each incremental reduction in the allowable number of clubs, it would become harder to hit the ball the correct distance. Seems like proximity to the hole would tend to go up.

Now for the next step. As I mentioned in my previous post, the longer a player hits the ball, the larger their gaps to begin with. Again, let's go to the extreme level (because it's easier to see the impact in our analysis) of the person that drives it 150 yards. Will a change in gap of 4.58 yards (13' 8", based on the math in my initial post) really impact them that much in their club selection? More so than the change in Tiger's gaps of 28' 8"? My dad drives it about 200 yards. When he walks, he takes every other iron out of his bag because he doesn't see the need for all of them. George Pazin does the same thing. My friend that I play with the most routinely carries 11 clubs. If their gaps were bigger, do you think they'd feel the same way? I know that if I were to remove every other club, I'd have a harder time with distance control. Much more so than the people I play with that can't control their distance anyway!!!

I think it may even HELP the amateur player. With larger gaps, it would become harder to squeeze an extra half club out of a shot, and I'd hope that players would grow more accustomed to taking MORE club! As you know, one of the biggest problems among amateurs is the failure to take enough club on approach shots.

It should speed up play as well. I remember when I was a kid, I knew even before I got to my ball what club I was going to be hitting. With bigger gaps between clubs, it would become easier to KNOW that there's only one club to consider for a particular shot. Then it's a matter of how hard do I hit it. There would now only be 8 chances to be between clubs, rather than the current 12.

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