Talking Sticks and the Pheonix area...

[Yannick Pilon]

Just heading south for two days in Phoenix to play the North Course at Talking Sticks.  

I was wondering if the south course was also worth playing and which were the other courses in the area worth seeking out to get a good desert golf experience....

Any input on the Phoenix or Scottsdale nightlife/pubs or sightseeing areas would be appreciated as well....

Thanks

[Bill_McBride]

I played both in December and felt the South to be a good parkland type course (vs North's desert setting) but not up to the same standard as North.  It's still better than most of the usual resort suspects in the area, and you can walk either course easily, and are not prohibited from doing so.

A really good low end option is the TPC of Scottsdale's Desert Course, public, under $40 early twilight (1 p.m.), walking okay, a fun course.

Biltmore Gold, very good recent renovation by Forrest Richardson, also very walkable and a lot of fun.  A lot pricier but again, twilight is not so bad at $75.

[rjsimper]

I thought Talking Stick South was good, not great.  Underrated and overshadowed for sure.  I preferred it to the TPC Desert course Bill mentioned, but he is correct to note the relative value of that track.

By the way, there's only one Talking Stick in the facility name, not Talking Sticks

A bit of a drive west, but I really enjoyed the Raven at Verrado.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Yannick,

Coore and Crenshaw have a new course under construction at We-Ka-Po, too. Might be worth stopping by there for a look.

[Jerry Kluger]

First things first: The Fox Sports restaurant is fun and reasonable.
Golf: We-ko-pa is really good but a bit pricey and they don't allow carts off the path so it can be a long round even if you walk.  I will be playing the Dinosaur Course at Gold Canyon Golf Resort and it's supposed to be real good.  Gold course at the Wigwam is supposed to be a good Forrest Richardson restoration.  Papago is supposed to be a very good muni and real cheap.  Check 602golf.com for last minute specials.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Yannick,

               Talking Stick South is a very good course, better than most of the public/resort courses in the greater Scottsdale area. Its just not as good as TS North.

               Some of my other favorite public courses are Longbow and Las Sendas, both are in Mesa.  Both are usually in very good shape and won't cost you an arm or leg.  

               I would probably check out the newly restored Wigwam if I was in town, at least until the new We-ko-pa course is open.  

[Jay Flemma]

Yannick, I liked TSN North, and would also recommend 1) We-ko-pa, 2) Blackstone by Jim Engh and 3) Doak's Apache Stronghold.  Apache is the strongest design of the four, but the conditions have been really dry.

Articles on each are here:

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2006/01/sharin-in-we-ko-pa-groove-in.html

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2006/01/pictures-of-jim-enghs-new-blackstone.html

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2006/01/apache-stronghold-gc-globe-az-poor.html

Also, the Japanese restaurant Sapporo was terrific...the martinis were great too and the lounge was crowded with a hot young crowd that wsn't overly snooty.

[Jim Dawson]

Yannick,
Both Talking stick courses are just above average. My feeling are when I go to the desert, I want to play desert courses.
If you are going at this time of year, some great values can be had.
My suggestions:
1. Raven at Verrado- all day golf and two meals for $110
2. both courses at Whirlwind About $100 each
3.Apache Stronghold, 90 miles east of airport, cost $45. great layout, average at best conditioning, but NO houses.
4.Longbow in Mesa $50. A fun desert course.
Check out www.golf602.com for deals.
I play around 25 rounds in Phoenix per year.
Message me for more info if you wish.
Thanks,
JD

[Mike Hendren]

I would encourage you and others to play both Talking Stick courses.  They provide a rare opportunity to compare contrasting styles from a single architectural team over virtually identical terrain.  While I prefer the north course, the south is not lacking for strategic merit and is a unique opportunity to examine C & C's design and manufacture of classical push-up styled greens.  

Both are good walks as well.

Mike

[Jay Flemma]

While I will vouch for Jim and 602golf, don't miss Talking Stick...it's the "smartest" scottsdale course.  He also picked Apache, a great design with redans, biarritzes and brilliant diagonal use of the dry washes.

[Bryan Izatt]

I am not as big a fan of TSN as most on here are.  It's worth a play if you are in that area of Phoenix, and as an example of creatinfg an interesting course on an uninteresting piece of land.  The south had more trees, but on the same flat piece of topography.  Who wants a treed course when you go to the desert, though.

Others that I found more interesting, and that are both mountain and desert courses, would be We-ko-pa, Sunridge Canyon, and Eagle Mountain, in that order.  They're about 20 minutes from TSN, up in Fountain Hills.

If you have time, going out to Apache Stronghold is well worth it.  And the price is right.

[Doug Wright]

Yannick,

Just returned from Scottsdale where I played Raven at Verrado for the first time. I've played Talking Stick North several times in the past, and Talking Stick South, We-Ko-Pa and Sunridge Canyon once each.

Regarding Raven at Verrado, first off it is a great deal. As mentioned, 2 meals plus all day golf for under $150 (it was $150 for me last week of March but probably less when you're there). It was very uncrowded midweek and easy to get 36 in with an 8 am start and lunch in between.  Golf/GCA-wise I'd say it is a decent course but not up to Talking Stick North. There are some very strong holes and some weak holes. Strong: #2, a short par 4 with a cape green--could have been even better if they'd introduced a redan effect to the greensite; #4, a long par 4 requiring two good shots, the par 4 #8, which has a semi-blind tee shot over a protruding bluff, and #13, a decent par 4 with a center bunker hazard. The best hole on the course is #14, a 300 yard uphill par 4 with a wonderful false front green. One of the best short par 4s I've seen anywhere.  Weak: all the par 3s and par 5s. I just didn't find much challenge to them except for the greenside bunkering on the par 5 7th. Warning: if you're staying in Scottsdale there's a lot of traffic between you and the west sid eof town where Verrado is located.

Talking Stick North is a must play IMO. Excellent bunkering and variety. The par 5 2d ("Boundary"), which has been discussed at length on here, is a terrrific use of a fenceline hazard. I think Talking Stick South is very underrated GCA-wise and actually a more difficult golf course than TSN. Smaller, built up greens, clearly more "manufactured." I agree with Mike Hendren that it makes sense to play TSS just to see how the architects could create two vastly different courses out of flat, adjacent desert land.

I believe We-Ko-Pa is slightly better than Raven at Verrado, with stronger par 3s and some good cross-hazards, though Verrado's #14 is the best hole on either course. I don't care for the finishing hole on either course. I liked Sunridge Canyon and rank it a notch below We-Ko-Pa and on a par with Verrado; however, the downhill front nine and slog back up the canyon on the back nine was not too appealing to me. The best holes there are right at the turn (driveable 10th and long par 4 11th I believe). Not played it but from other comments I've heard pass on Eagle Mtn.  

Just my 2 cents.