Old fashioned architectural cutting and filling...?

[TEPaul]

I see some recent threads about some of the "naturalness" of the old great courses and how little earth may've been moved.

Do many of us have much idea when, where or even why they moved earth back then, not to mention the how of it?

I doubt it. Old fashioned cutting and filling is perhaps a subject the true understanding of which just might tell us a whole lot more about those old golf courses and even their architects then most of us now know or think.

Some of us look at those old courses, particularly some of the features around green-ends and we think what geniuses they were for thinking of and thinking through this little nuancy strategy or that one, when the truth of it just may be all they were really doing is looking for fill for some relatively mundane reason or another such as leveling a green surface off enough to be playable, and hence both the arrangement and dimensions of some of the features around them such as bunkering.  

[Jim Thompson]

Tom,

I doubt many know what "GEE" and "HAW" even mean anymore.

JT

[TEPaul]

Paul:

I suggest you do two things and if you did them rather faster than immediately it would be good form.

First, completely erase and then expunge that last post of yours because for some reason you just semi-revealed the eternal secret of golf course architecture to all these yahoos and dreamers who never were and never are supposed to know it--not now---not ever.

And second, and most importantly, don't ever introduce me to even a twit of understanding of how to operate any of that God forsaken mechanized equipment or you will begin to corrupt my purity and my inherent genius for ALMOST total naturalism in architecture---which to be completely blunt with you is all I have left, at this point.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

I've been doing some research on this as my on-going Penn State White Course stuff continues. I feel that understanding the original methods of construction can provide a hey starting point in restoration work.

Willie Park seemed to be pretty economic with his use of fill and the topography in dictating features. There are several instances where the dug out fill (perhaps an area of deeper topsoil - not uncommon on farmland) was integrated into the adjacent holes or tee complexes for the green. There is a deep swale in front of the current 11th hole that I speculate (based on the terrain) was dug out to provide fill for the built up 10th hole. The fairways overlaps the far slope of the swale and this provides a visual confusion as to the width and distance from the fairway.

Park was also noted for important pond dredgings or cinders as a part of building a subsurface drainage into his greens. While I doubt these fills were not of the sophistication of today's "USGA Spec" greens I believe the intent was the same, if not similar.

I'd be interested to do deep core samples of the PSU White Course greens to see just what construction methods Park employed at that particular site.

The current online USGA Green Section Archive is a good source for this information.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tom,

How about new super work? I received this email from a friend about their historic course:

"a new tee box was constructed this spring on the fifth hole.
 
The superintendent built it without asking anyone's permission - he just did it.
 
When I asked the pro how this tee box came to be he said that when the super cleared some mounds off of the driving range that he needed to put the dirt somewhere.
 
So much for strategy ! ! !"

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I doubt many know what "GEE" and "HAW" even mean anymore."

JT;

That's probably true. I'd say it's one of two things;

1/ The "war-whoop" Jethro makes when he's running after Daisy Mae in an attempt to nail her. But I don't believe Jethro's ever actually caught her---Daisy Mae, they've always said, is pretty damned fast.

2/ The now semi-obsolete language known as Mulese.
 

[TEPaul]

"Park was also noted for important pond dredgings or cinders as a part of building a subsurface drainage into his greens. While I doubt these fills were not of the sophistication of today's "USGA Spec" greens I believe the intent was the same, if not similar"

Kyle:

That may be---I'm not all that familiar with the philosophy of really old fashioned green construction intent vs what it is today.

But, I will tell you this---in the real old days of golf architecture, probably in most cases the era we sometimes call the "Dark Ages" the idea with green siting and green construction was to find natural hollows for greens. The reason was obvious---it was the only method to hold water to sustain the green as weather was mostly the only source of water. I guess this kind of philosophy might be called the "bathtub" effect.

I'd like to know a lot more about the green construction intent as it began to evolve out of that rudimentary application and on into perhaps the early "Golden Age" form of the old "push-up" method and construction.

The real reason I mention this is because of what I've been hearing from Matt Shaffer of Merion. He's recently taken to calling his greens (after calling them his "children" that is) "bathtubs".

The reason he calls them that is he says they drain well through the profile but after that they are like bathtubs without a drain. Obviously that can be really dangerous if they take on too much water and then the weather completely turns on them like it did last July about a month before the US Amateur.

If that combination happens his greens and their roots are basically in danger of boiling. So what's his solution? Well, for staters it's extreme dryness other than what nature provides.

But even dryness is hard to manage and balance across many of his greens because too much water collects under there in the low spots and not the high spots. Apparently now he's into this interesting method out of Ohio of getting a form of rope underneath in the low spots to soak up moisture so they can be better balanced moisture-wise with the higher spots.

A good number of the greens of Merion East are probably original 1911 construction. That's really early in the evolution of golf course architecture and most certainly in agronomic thinking.

[Joe Hancock]

"Tom,
I doubt many know what "GEE" and "HAW" even mean anymore."

JT;

That's probably true. I'd say it's one of two things;

1/ The "war-whoop" Jethro makes when he's running after Daisy Mae in an attempt to nail her. But I don't believe Jethro's ever actually caught her---Daisy Mae, they've always said, is pretty damned fast.

2/ The now semi-obsolete language known as Mulese.
 

Tom,

I hate to bring Dr. Katz in on this, but I think he would agree with me that you either:

a) Have a disturbing attraction and fetish for Daisy Mae

or

b) Have an even more disturbing jealousy of Daisy Mae for being chased by Jethro.

Please tell me you don't secretly want to be chased and caught from behind by Jethro?

Joe

[TEPaul]

Joe:

Certain aspects of your last post are what nightmares are made of.

Do I have a fixation for Daisy Mae? Of course not, other than the fact that the barefooted, lithe, nubile, blond young thing in a tight poka-dot blouse and jeans cut-off so high it gives most men arythmia, she's really nothing more than the great American Myth of what a women should be. And the fact that she's so fleet afoot that no man can catch her and nail her is pretty interesting, don't you think?  

[TEPaul]

In case you never noticed before, Joe, I am heavily into what might fairly be called "American Myth/American Reality".

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

I doubt many know what "GEE" and "HAW" even mean anymore.

JT

Jim,

I might need to speak with Barney, but I'm fairly sure such knowledge is a litmus test for Hillbilly Tour membership.  When one's dad grew up in Curve, Tennessee (so named for the curve in the L&N railroad track), mule commands are an early life lesson.

Tom Paul,

I resent your inference that hillbilly family trees don't fork.

Mike

[Jim Thompson]

Mike,

What if I said I could put my hands on not only the harness and yoke sets but an authentic mule blade, float, skid, and draw box, all in adequate forms of disrepair of course.  Would that get me in the club?

JT

[Joe Hancock]

Jim,

Are you talking about Daisy Mae or Jethro?

Joe

[Jim Thompson]

Joe,

That would be the Daisy Mae club Joe despite where I grew
up.

JT

[Dr Katz]

Let us all clasp hands and in unison chant;

OOOmmm

OOOOmmm

OOOOOOMMM

Dr Katz