When did golf architecture in North America become natural..

[John Kavanaugh]

Did it all start at Sand Hills...

[Jason Blasberg]

I think you've got to qualify that with Modern?

[John Kavanaugh]

Why...Is NGLA any more natural than Bellerive..

[Jason Blasberg]

John, I assumed from your stating Sand Hills in your post that you were discussing "Modern" designs.



 

[John Kavanaugh]

Jason,

Not at all...Is there a classic course built in North America that still stands today as one of the all time greats that comes close to being as natural as Sand Hills...Was the redan at Shinnecock manufactured...does that put Shinney out of the running..

[Mike_Young]

I never said it was....who is saying it is?

[Jordan Wall]

Do you mean.

Golf Courses being natural??

Golf architecture is simply a tee and a hole to put the ball in.

[TEPaul]

John Kavanaugh asked;

"...Is there a classic course built in North America that still stands today as one of the all time greats that comes close to being as natural as Sand Hills...Was the redan at Shinnecock manufactured...does that put Shinney out of the running.."

John:

The short answer is--no there isn't. But so what? Is there any of the all-time greats that had the kind of land SH had before a golf course was built on it? I think most of us know the answer to that. Coore and Crenshaw sure did.

The more interesting questions would be not just which of the old great courses comes closest to SH that way, but why?

[TEPaul]

By the way, talking about natural greens vs something else---get this, and this is from SH itself.

There are 17 greens at SH that cost around $300-$400 each to make, and there's one out there that cost around $40,000 to make.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

I think it started about a hundred years earlier at GCGC.

[John Kirk]

Prairie Dunes, though it is somewhat less natural, seems a natural precursor to Sand Hills.

I doubt anything is as natural as Sand Hills, though some of our favorite architects strive to build courses that blend in with the given topography as naturally as possible.

I thought Crystal Downs was pretty natural looking.  Especially the way they squeezed that 17th hole in there.  Geez!  Shortest par 7 in golf.

[john_stiles]

What is 'Natural' ?    In terms of cubic yards moved ?

Shinny and Newport 's courses were probably natural upon opening and hosting first national tournaments.  I am guessing little earth was moved and greens were built without massive cuts or fills.

In about 1892 they 'built' three holes, formed a golf club, at the present site of Palmetto Golf Club in Aiken.  It was very natural.

The 'natural courses' probably became more scarce upon more money coming into the game, and may all but have disappeared  about the time mechanized earthmoving was 'affordable' to the course developers after the depression.  

I think a modern 'natural' course would be more meaningful in the evolution of GCA.

Early photos of ANGC look like there wasn't much earth moved upon building the course.  They constructed some mounding around the present 8th, built 18 greens, put in a paltry 29 bunkers, and did little work to the natural creeks.
 
ANGC in the old photos, before the course improvements, always struck me as being a natural course.    Any insight on the cubic yards moved upon ANGC construction.   Was it 'natural' upon opening ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

In the ultimate, you're correct.

Golf courses are especially prepared for play, in their design, construction and maintainance.

Some are just more prepared than others

[Gene Greco]

The Maidstone was built about the same time as GCGC and is about as natural a classic course as there could be in the US. However, what was "rebulit" after the Hurricane of 1938?

[Dan_Callahan]

Ekwanok in Vermont is about as natural a course—classic or modern—as I have ever seen.

[Bill Weber]

Dan did you ever play Equinox pre-irrigation and other nonsensical and irresponsible changes? It was wonderful and left one feeling back then Ekwanok was a little too manicured in comparison.

[A_Clay_Man]

Theres natural, like in Pasture golf, then there's natural looking.

Some of the old photos of Pebble Beach sure looked natural. But like pac dunes, SH and even the soon to be pinnacle Ballyneal, is made to appear natural. Besides the smoke and mirrors, leaving much alone has to have alot to with it.

Who comes to SH and isn't floored when they findout the sand pit on four became the green?

I suppose that's why I feel The Rawls course is so amazing. Completely manufacuted to appear natural.

[TEPaul]

"The Maidstone was built about the same time as GCGC and is about as natural a classic course as there could be in the US. However, what was "rebulit" after the Hurricane of 1938?"

Gene:

Interesting you say that. Just about my favorite par 4 in the world, in look and play, is Maidstone's #9. I always thought what an incredible and fortuitous natural landform to find and use for golf.

And then to my total surprise I find out after about 30 years of knowing that hole that much of its present mid-body land form isn't really natural at all. What Park jr did on that hole's  mid-body as well as why is incredibly interesting.

[Dan_Callahan]

Bill,

I haven't played Equinox—only Ekwanok. It didn't feel manicured to me at all. Some nice, rugged terrain with a routing that did a great job incorporating natural features. I hate the cart path that runs down the middle of the par 5 7th, but that is about my only quibble with the entire layout. The par 3 13th is one of my favorite holes just based on its sheer simplicity. At about 200+ yards, the front right greenside bunker is hidden behind a field of tall grass. There there is plenty of room on the left to run your ball onto the green.

[BCrosby]

I don't mean to be a sourpuss, but whether a course is "natural" or not has always struck me as an unproductive way to talk about golf courses.

It's one thing to say you like the "look" of SH. I certainly do. But I don't think it looks any more "natural" than ANGC does in its setting or Shinnie in its setting or, heck, even Prestwick in its setting next to a train station, several industrial plants, cheap seaside condos and an international airport.  

Depending on how you preset your knobs, all golf courses are "natural" or none are or some are. That's why it's an unproductive way to talk about gca, imho. There are too many unstated assumptions packed into the concept to make it a useful basis for parsing courses.

Bob