ANGC--Poster Child for Everything Wrong in Golf?

[Jim Thompson]

If you look close, I think you'll see the carts working in two teams dragging ropes to flip the clippings.

As for the fairway for twelve, I believe it exists to provide the  player every possible option on their drop had they found the creek off the tee.  I can see Jones holding this up as a ideal approach and it makes sense to me in that context.

Paul,

I just spent way to much effort to respond to your nonsense and the system won't let me post it do to size. So you get nothing.  I think everyone else here understands the difference between the course and the ideal and the pitfalls of only seeing the course on week of the year.  Its not about jealousy or blame it about dealing with an under educated public that impacts all of us in the industry. I just want ANGC to let folks know what it takes to pull it off. They can tell the story via GolfDom, GolfWeek SuperNews, the GCSAA whatever.  Maybe I'l write a piece on it myself and I assure you I won't be drawing uninformed or unresearched conclusions.  Remember, I'm a recovering accountant in a twelve step program who has been asking why and how since I came out of the womb.

As for Jones, I think he would have been a proponent of increasing width and green severity to more accuracy and length in tandem to the edges of the playing field in the conext of the games test of skill, nerve, and thought.

Cheers!

JT

[Andy Doyle]

...As for the fairway for twelve, I eiee it exists to proider the  player very possible option on their drop had they found the creek off the tee.  I can see Jones holding this up as a ideal approach and it makes sense to mein that context.

As evidence of this point, yesterday we saw 2 caddies lasering distances from several sprinkler heads (I'm assuming) in this area to a couple of points at the front of the green on #12.  Think Jeff Maggert in 2003.

Whenever I get depressed about my game relative to the perceived perfection of the pros, I think about the clip I saw of Jack hitting a dead shank on #12 during the Masters (year?) right into the area we are talking about.

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[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,
Please ignore Pat. He suffers from selective reading comprehension skills. I've followed this banter from the beginning, and it should have stopped on page 2.

Pat - do you talk to your family and friends like this? If so - someone should punch you in the face.

Why don't you try it at the next GCA.com get together.

And, Tim's a big boy, he can answer for himself, he doesn't need help from the peanut gallery

Paul Turner,

Photos of Augusta, and photos of Augusta in the days leading up to and during the Masters can differ.

The Nationwide Tour has 42 players whose AVERAGE drive is 300 or more yards. and 94 players whose AVERAGE drive is 290 or more.
The PGA tour has 21 players whose AVERAGE drive is 300 or more and 82 players whose AVERAGE drive is 290 or more.
Hence the majority of the players can drive it 300 +

When they play in the spring and summer those numbers will increase.

Jim Thompson,

I agree, it's the uneducated public, but, for a second, just look at the group on GCA.com.  They too fall into the same category.  Many feel ANGC exists in perpetuity as it does for four days a year.  So, if these folks, who have access to resources that the general public can't access, think ANGC is that way 24/7/365, how will the message get out to the general public.

Haven't the equipment companies "sold" the public and clubs on "The Look" ?

I don't think you can blame ANGC, a club in Georgia, which hosts a Major every spring, on a spectacular golf course, for every problem and pressure that superintendents suffer under.

ANGC hosts a Major Tournament that CBS showcases in everyway they can, for four days a year.  And, I've enjoyed watching that event ever since I was a kid.  For me, it represented the start of the golfing season.

With respect to the photo, don't you think that the carts to the right are a little too close together to be effectively dragging anything ?

And, as to the carts in the backround, why would two men be needed to man a cart ?  Especially to drag a hose/line.

Perhaps the individual who took the photo can tell us what they were doing rather than have us speculate on their function.

P.S.  Who was it that stated that ANGC stimps at 13 ?

[Tim Pitner]

Pat, I don't want to carry this bickering any further--let me simply say this.  I find your attempts at the Socratic method rather condescending.  I've been through law school; I don't participate here to get the same treatment.  The question I asked of you which you failed to answer was: what was your opinion regarding whether Augusta represents a bad model for other courses to emulate?  While some of this trickled out over time, I prefer a more straightforward, less pedantic approach.  I'll certainly listen to other opinions, especially those based on experience.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I don't want to carry this bickering any further--let me simply say this.  I find your attempts at the Socratic method rather condescending.  

I've been through law school;

How could someone who's been through law school rely on unreliable, unidentifiable third party sources to formulate his position ?

Didn't they teach you to "get the facts" prior to presenting your case ?

You didn't have the facts, you had nebulous, third party references as the foundation of your comments

I don't participate here to get the same treatment.  The question I asked of you which you failed to answer was: what was your opinion regarding whether Augusta represents a bad model for other courses to emulate?  

I answered that question.

NO, I don't think it represents a bad model.

You erroneously assumed and based your premise on the position that what you see on TV exists 24/7/365 and it doesn't.  The fairways do get brown, the water muddy and the greens relatively slow.

Time and time again you've failed to understand the individual components that you've been critical of.

# 1  It's green.  AG Crockett explained this to you in detail
# 2  The trees   AG Crockett and I explained this to you in
                       detail
# 3  The sound of birds.  Also explained to you.
# 4  The speed of the greens   An exageration on your part.
                                          and, what PGA Tour  
                                          tournament doesn't get their
                                          greens fast for a
                                          competition, let alone a Major

Should they put their best or worst foot forward when CBS televises their presentation ?

If your home was going to be on TV how would you want it presented, at its best or at its worst ?

Surely you understand the phrase "Show Time"

While some of this trickled out over time, I prefer a more straightforward, less pedantic approach.  I'll certainly listen to other opinions, especially those based on experience.

My opinions are based on experience.

I was trying to get you to see that your sources and premise were flawed and your opinion based upon a limited perspective, four days in Georgia, in April, when a Major is hosted and telecast by CBS.

I questioned you to determine the substance to your statements, the viability of your premise.   Your inability to answer those questions provided me with that information.

Getting the "facts" prior to making pronouncements is prudent

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

The tour follows the sun and the numbers will likely not increase significantly.

That's an interesting way to look at the stats.  So when you state that the majority of players CAN hit it over 300 yards, you are not taking averages.  What are you taking and does it have any meaning?

[Tim Pitner]

Pat, you'll see that the subject of my post was phrased as a question.  I didn't pretend to have "all the facts."  I put out a position and invited comment.  It doesn't appear that you have ever comprehended my position (e.g., I never suggested Augusta shouldn't be green)--perhaps that is my fault.  I happen to disagree with you when you say that Augusta is putting its best foot forward by artificially coloring the water and making the greens so quick.  The Masters and CBS may agree with that approach, but I think it's perpetuating two things that are not good for golf generally (namely, artificiality and green speeds that may not be appropriate for the green contours).  Now, as we are resembling two ships passing in the dark, I propose we terminate our discussion.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Now, the Masters has fallen in my estimation.  

It seems to represent many things that I'd like to change about golf--it's overly manicured, artificial (from the dye in the water to the canned bird chirping in the TV broadcast), unnecessarily long and the green speeds are too high.  

Now, I know that many of my complaints relate to the tournament course and tournament presentation rather than the course the members play, but it still seems to me that Augusta/the Masters represents so many things that have gone in the wrong direction in golf.  

Here's what you wrote.
You made these statements, you didn't simply pose a question, as you now claim.

So, I have to ask,
What were the green speeds five and ten years ago, what are they today ?

The golf course was lengthened by 155 yards this year.
You say it's too long.
They say that they want to restore shot values, such as when Greg Norman hit a 4 iron into # 18 or when Nicklaus hit 3 or 5 iron into # 11.
They don't want wedges into every par 4 and some of the par 5's, so what's wrong with lengthening the golf course ?

To what length would you have the 2006 Masters played at ?

Do you think if all of those spectators weren't around that more birds would be on the property, chirping away ?
That's CBS's schtick.

As to the dye in the water, on what holes and in what years was that done ?

Would you prefer to see muddy brown water ?

You made definitive statements which I took issue with.
If you can't support and/or defend your position, don't make the statements.  And please, don't tell us that you just asked a question.[/b][/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

What you don't understand is that the greens aren't any quicker than most other PGA Tour Tournament venues, so how is Augusta out of sync ?  
How do they send a bad message ?  
And, for a Major, why would you want greens that putt slow ?  

Shouldn't a deft touch be required by the best golfers in the world when they're competing in a major ?
 

[PThomas]

they have dyed the water in the past Patrick, and very well still might be doing it

[Patrick_Mucci]

The tour follows the sun and the numbers will likely not increase significantly.

When you look at the California swing and the weather as well as the spring swing and the weather the numbers tend to be lower then when things heat up in the summer.
It's unlikely that they'll be wearing turtle necks and sweaters as they have on the events in the first quarter of 2006.

That's an interesting way to look at the stats.  So when you state that the majority of players CAN hit it over 300 yards, you are not taking averages.  What are you taking and does it have any meaning?

If you've ever watched the PGA Tour Pros you know that they don't go at the ball full throttle 100 % of the time.
They have distance in reserve, so when a hole presents an advantage to distance, they can ratchet up their driving  distance.

20+ years ago noone ever dreamed of placing bunkers at the 300-350 mark.   If tees weren't moved back for the best golfers in the world the fairway bunkers and features meant to interface with those golfers would be nothing more then window dressing.

Long holes like # 10 and # 11 are downhill and play much shorter then the yardage.  The same could be said for # 2 and # 4.

If after 84 rounds a golfer is AVERAGING 290 or 300 or 320, I have to believe he can kick it up more then a few yards when he needs to.   In addition, I believe the NCAA tournament driving stats revealed that college kids were hitting it farther then the PGA Tour Pros.  Generationally, you'll see another leap in distance when they hit the PGA Tour.

Do you want to see golfers hitting 9-irons into # 10 and # 11 or do you want to see long irons into those holes, as AM and RTJ intended ?

Do you want to see 8-9 irons and wedges into par 5's or would you prefer to watch the risk-reward and thrill created by a very long iron or fairway wood over a water hazard to a challenging green ?

Absent a competition ball, which I advocate, lengthening courses remains the only way to examine a golfers entire game.

But, if you want to continue to believe that the world is flat in a non-Thomas Friedman sort of way, be my guest.

[Patrick_Mucci]

they have dyed the water in the past Patrick, and very well still might be doing it

Paul T,

I don't usually ask questions that I don't already know the answer to.

But, thanks anyway.

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

Lets watch the stats through the year and my bet is that there will not be much change in the number of pros averaging over 300 yds: 20-25.  What do you think?  How many will it be?

I agree the pros don't swing 100% all the time.  But that has always been the case.  With the more forgiving drivers they are more likely to swing closer to 100% now than ever before.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lets watch the stats through the year and my bet is that there will not be much change in the number of pros averaging over 300 yds: 20-25.  What do you think?  How many will it be?

I'll take 30 or over at 300 or 300+.

How about letting dinner ride on the outcome.
I still owe SPDB dinner for the Merion sprinkler heads so with three or more attendees we can call it a GCA.com get together.  Maybe Cabell Ackerly can attend and he an I will provide the entertainment.

I agree the pros don't swing 100% all the time.  But that has always been the case.  With the more forgiving drivers they are more likely to swing closer to 100% now than ever before.

I'd agree with that.
But, I still think they're capable of letting out shaft when they need to.

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

You're on.  Dinner would be great.  

NB 2005 had about 26 at or above 300yds.  So it'll be close.  Note that we're only talking a 1-2 yard difference in our predictions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Turner,

Right now, only 21 golfers average 300 or more on the PGA Tour, so I'm betting that there will be an increase of nearly
50 %.

I'm hoping that shaft technology, especially in the longer shafts of 46" and above will generate the numbers.

[ChasLawler]

How about letting dinner ride on the outcome.
I still owe SPDB dinner for the Merion sprinkler heads so with three or more attendees we can call it a GCA.com get together.  Maybe Cabell Ackerly can attend and he an I will provide the entertainment.

My father taught me to never get in a fight with someone smaller than me. It's a lose-lose proposition from the beginning.

Pat - I don't know how big you are, but I think I will apply my father's logic to the elderly as well.

I'm out.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cabell Ackerly,

That's too bad.

I so enjoy being the underdog.

[BigEdSC]

I fail to see why ANGC is the poster child for what is wrong with golf.  If it is, why is it the toughest ticket in all of sports to get?  Especially since Augusta isn't located inside a suburban area like New York, Chicago, or Philly.

I've been going to the tournament off and on for the last 20 years.  My first impression was that Hootie and the boys might of screwed the pooch with this one.  But I would like to wait until the tournament is over until I make a final judgment.  

VJ shot a nice -5 to open up the tournament.  To me, I normally expect someone to shoot -5 to -7 to open up the tournament.  

I also peeked at the first round stats.  Avg. driving distance today is 290 yards.  

So with 7 being 450, the average player has a 160ish shot to a small, elevated green.  If you have seen 7, there is a wide landing area at about 280-290.  If you want to nail it over 300 yards, the fairway has been narrowed by some newly planted pine trees down the rough on both sides beyond 300 yards.  The fairway cants left to right, and with the fast and firm conditions, there is a large risk to try and put wedge in their hands by busting it.  So you play to hit an eight iron or so.

With 11, the drive is downhill.  So let's say the average pro again hits it 290.  He has 215 in, downhill.  It's not an easy shot with the pond on the left, but they all have the ability to hit the green from there and make par.

12 and 13 will play pretty much the same in past years.  And 15 has made the players try to aim the ball around the trees located on the left.

Finally, To me, 12 and 13, coupled with 15 and 16 always makes me sit on the edge of my seat on Sunday, and it's one thing that you can depend on every year.  

And if length is everything, David Duval averaged 314 yards with his driver today and what did he shoot?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed Galbavy,

I believe that this year's first round scoring average is the lowest in many years.

Those guys are really, really good.

While the course may seem long to most, remember, it's a par 72, not a par 70.   What will Winged Foot play at as a par 70 this summer.  And, some of the long holes like # 10 and # 11 play downhill, as does the drive on # 9 and # 2.

And, conditions at ANGC are fast and firm.

Didn't Mickelson hit a 9 iron into # 18 ?

Think about Norman, at the peak of his game, playing a shorter # 18 and having to hit a 4-iron for his second shot.
That should tell you all you need to know.

What I am surprised about, especially in light of ANGC's resources, is that they didn't employ horizontal elasticity, tightening the  course for The Masters and then expanding it back to its original setup for the balance of play.

Perhaps their growing and membership seasons don't permit that form of elasticity, but it seems like a viable alternative to permanently tightening the golf course.

[Jim Nugent]

Tim,

What you don't understand is that the greens aren't any quicker than most other PGA Tour Tournament venues, so how is Augusta out of sync ?

 

Pat, how do you know they aren't quicker than most other PGA courses?  Augusta does not tell the public what they stint at.  

[BigEdSC]

Pat
I tend to agree with you here.  I thought I saw something on the news last night that the average score yesterday was the lowest ever, I remember 20 years ago when Norman flared his 4 iron right.  Also among other memories, Chip Beck laying up from 237 on 15.  You think that he caught hell then, what if he did that this year?  

Probably what I mean is that the Masters started becoming a drive and wedge show.  The tournament committee had to do something to combat that.  Yesterday was absolutely perfect conditions and the course was perfect.  The players, I think, surprised most people by shooting some decent scores.

But to answer the original question, IMO, no, I don't think that Augusta National is the poster child for everything wrong in golf.  Not even close.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

What you don't understand is that the greens aren't any quicker than most other PGA Tour Tournament venues, so how is Augusta out of sync ?

Pat, how do you know they aren't quicker than most other PGA courses?  Augusta does not tell the public what they stint at.  

For a few reasons.
I have friends of mine who are on site who've described the pace of the greens, some of whom I would consider very reliable sources, and from observing the putts on TV, having had some degree of familiarity with the greens, from serving on a USGA championship committee for 15 or so years, from playing in PGA tour wednesday pro-ams, from being on site and spectating at PGA Tour events, and from having purchased carpet for my den by bringing a stimpmeter into the carpet store to make sure that any carpet I bought didn't putt under 10', and using that carpet to putt on all winter long.  ( do you know that some carpet has grain ?)

Now, how do you know that the greens at ANGC are putting quicker than most other PGA Tour greens ?


P.S.   Did anyone notice the water yesterday ?
        It looked quite natural on TV and some people in
        attendance said it was .... water, with no color
        additives.
        Some said it looked brown, perhaps that was CBS
        trying for a new look. [/color]

[BigEdSC]

Speaking of stimpmeters, Monday while I was watching one of the players practice on the course, one of the patrons asked him what the greens were running.  He replied that he thought that they were running about 12 or so.  But, except for the 12th green, there aren't too many flat spots on the greens that he thought they could get an accurate reading.

[Dan Herrmann]

I watched the HD presentation yesterday and you could see (Hootie forbid) shades of brown in the fairways (#11 had a lot) and even aeration hole healing taking place.

On that picture, there was one guy mowing and the others were in very fast carts going about their business.  While there were a LOT of people attending to the course, I wouldn't say it was excessive.  Plus, I understand that a good number of the GCSAA pros from the area help out.

(PS - while I was watching, Parnivek shanked one over by the Sarazen bridge.  He caught a lot of grief from guys coming down #13 fairway, but he pitched up and made a par.  So - yes, this area can be in play)

Guys - AGNC is an incredible place.  The members I spoke with were very friendly and proud.  The players love the place.  They don't rip you off financially.  There are no big signs advertising ED products.  It's a version of golf heaven.

Yes - there are many types of golf heaven.  Some are windswept links.  Some are parkland style.  Some are in the desert, and some in the mountains.  But AGNC definitely has a place in that list.