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John Kavanaugh

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2006, 12:20:24 PM »


Who said anything about Augusta?  And the pros are a different issue - they can handle much more.  In any case, for whatever reason, Augusta doesn't get to the absurdity I've labored to describe.  It could be the pin positions, it could be the gentler contour than Pasa.  In any case, have you ever seen a ball get to the hole, then roll back to one's feet?  I sure haven't.



TH

I think I have seen that on nine green...might have been a lip out return..You on one hand say the pros can handle it better then dismiss the fact the the greatest of all pros putted into a ditch.  You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.  I doubt if Tiger would have had such a bad day at Pasa back when you got your feelings hurt because you couldn't get the ball in the hole in as few as strokes as it takes for you to not turn down the rearview mirror on the drive home.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2006, 12:21:50 PM »
Michael:

Your friend must have played prior to the ascent of the great THIERRY HENRY.

 ;D

But careful re the issues here:  it's not DIFFICULTY that is the problem, not as I see it - it's ABSURDITY.  That is, make them tough, but not so stupid that a ball at rest gets blown around by the wind, or that putts can't stay by pin locations due to gravity.

TH

Tom Huckaby

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #52 on: April 04, 2006, 12:25:00 PM »
JK:

Now you're completely full of shit, or just screwing with me, or both.  That's cool - we've surely been down this road before.

Once again, this has nothing to do with difficulty, but absurdity.  And it sure as hell has zero to do with my feelings, success there or lack thereof!

Augusta's may well get to the absurd level.  You don't see it much though.  Thus I have zero against those greens and love how careful the pros have to be.

Because the bottom line is this:  I am all for greens that are fast, as fast as they can be such that a ball remains in place in strong wind, or has a chance to stay by the hole due to gravity.  If Augusta's exceed that, then I'd be against them.  I don't see that that happens there, for whatever reason.

If you enjoy these situations and this form of absurd golf, then more power to you.  You just have never seen it, and your lack of imagination is dooming you here.  I have seen it.  If I hadn't, perhaps I'd be imagination-less like you.

 ;D

« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 12:27:19 PM by Tom Huckaby »

TEPaul

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2006, 01:34:51 PM »
JESII asked:

"I wonder if there are any negatives from a maintenance perspective to adjusting greens speeds by a fairly wide margin during the primary growing season. I guess you'd have to change mower heights and schedules, what else would go into it?"

Sully:

This is a very good question and if you really think about it could prove to be the answer for a lot of problems with green speeds (particularly on the high end).

This is a question I asked our super at a green committee meeting recently as well as last year. And it's a question I've asked a number of supers over the years.

The question seems simple enough but the problem is the answer never is simple because so many potential factors go into a comprehensive, honest, accurate answer.

The next problem is most everyone who isn't an agronomist  probably wouldn't even understand the comprehensive answer that almost always involves many potential factors. And if they did even remotely understand it they probably don't want to hear it anyway. Most all members of clubs pretty much just want what they want whenever they want it and they don't want to be told by a super what his agronomic problems may be if and when he gives it to them.    

First of all, what do you mean by a 'wide range'? Would that be a foot, two feet, three feet? Logically, I'd think it would be harder to manage greens in a range depending on where you start and how high you want to go.

In other words, it's obviously a lot harder to do in a range of 10-11 than 9-10 or even 8-10. The reason is in that on foot  differential at the higher end (10-11) you are really in the potential stress zone for grass for a whole lot of reasons depending on numerous factors---eg grass is too short to naturally protect its crowns, wetness, dryness, heat, ground temperature etc, etc.

If you want any kind of answer to this question you pretty much need to ask the super the question given ideal conditions. The only problem with that is supers don't always operate in ideal conditions for their grass.  ;)

But the good news, Sully, is the roller gives supers about a foot differential anyway with the same mow height.

I went to a USGA agronomy meeting about two weeks ago and Stan Zontek said that for clubs that are running speeds on the higher end should use the roller and not necessarily lower mow heights to go that last mile (maybe up to a foot in speed) .
« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 01:42:52 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2006, 01:44:59 PM »
Patrick,

How many pinnable positions are lost on upper portion of the 16th green at ANGC during the Masters...

More than a few.


I know you wouldn't like to have seen the golf world robbed of Tiger's copy of DLove's chip last year.  

Slower greens wouldn't have robbed you of that, he would have played the shot differently, to a different spot, and with more pace.


I love the horse shoe chip and think it is worth sacrificing a pinnable position or two for the pleasure.

I don't think it's wise to prepare a course so that you can see a one in a million shot at the expense of a great number of shots.


We may be getting at what the difference between private and public courses are....Really, how many pinnable positions does a course that gets 11,000 rounds a year need.

As many as the architect intended when he designed the golf course.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2006, 01:48:19 PM »

Isn't that exactly what we want from golf...

I think Patrick and Huck are arguing that the greens we will see this week are goofy..

I never made that statement, nor did I allude to anything that resembles that statement.   You must have me confused with someone else.



John Kavanaugh

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2006, 01:52:00 PM »

Isn't that exactly what we want from golf...

I think Patrick and Huck are arguing that the greens we will see this week are goofy..

I never made that statement, nor did I allude to anything that resembles that statement.   You must have me confused with someone else.



Patrick,

I would never question your word...but are you going to tell me the greens you call goofy at times at Atlantic are faster than what we will see at ANGC this week...Is it possible your lack of skill just makes some of the greens you play on seem goofy when compared to the green management of the greatest players in the game.

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