Are there really greens out there.....

[John Kavanaugh]

Doesn't everyone agree that if the courses at Bandon were private the greens could be kept faster and thus more interesting.  Of course it would be my opinion that C&C saw that the greens at Pacific were "resort tame" and went out of their way to not make the same mistake at Bandon Trails....unfortunately even the greens at Trails are too slow to really come alive.

I have played golf for 38 years now and don't ever recall seeing greens too fast for my taste.  Who has ever walked off a course and said "I wish they would slow them things down.."..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

The only time I believe those greens would get to 10 is if someone, like the super or Mike Keiser, wanted to see what they'd be like at that speed, or, for a special occassion.

But, day in and day out, I can't see them at that speed.

How did my putt not go in the hole on # 17 to top Ran ?
They must have been experimenting with the 17th green that day.

JakaB,

I can only speak for BD and PD, but, my answer would be NO.
I don't think it's practical to keep them much faster, irrespective of public versus private play.

Could they be a little faster on the times when I've played them, sure, but, not at 10+

As to too fast, then you haven't played Atlantic when they're 13 and the wind comes up.

Yes, greens can get too fast, unless you don't mind 6-8 putting and putting off of greens, 30 yards back down the fairway.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

You need to play Pasatiempo at speeds over 10, using some interesting pin positions.  Of course I'd never hazard a guess at what YOUR reaction would be - you do have a rather unique view of the world - but I guarantee you'd have several putts go peek at the hole and roll back to your feet.  If you like that kinda thing, great.  I find it to be absurd.

As for the courses at Bandon, well... I don't recall any of the greens having the kind of wild contour that those at Pasa do.  So you might be right.  I just don't believe in golf balls being blown all over the place by the WIND either - the point Patrick makes.  Methinks they have things correct there also.  Make those too fast and it gets rather absurd as well.

Patrick - got it - well said.  But yes, their must have been a conspiracy that day against Ran.  

[TEPaul]

Paul T;

I would seriously doubt any golf course in a northern clime will get their greens in the early spring the speeds they get them from late May on. Agronomically that probabaly wouldn't be wise.

However, some of the fastest greens I've ever seen are in the winter (not frozen). I call them "winter fast" and they CAN be that way because there's virtually no friction on the surface when the grass isn't growing.

[John Kavanaugh]

As to too fast, then you haven't played Atlantic when they're 13 and the wind comes up.

I wish I could...who wouldn't think that sounds like fun.  Forget about the putting..fast greens bring so much more imagination to chipping and approach shots.  I doubt that the greens at Atlantic are more severe than at ANGC and we are going to see some fun this week.  Why should I have to be one of the best 50 players in the world just to get to hit chips like we are going to see this week.  I'll take a four putt here or there for the pleasure.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK - you seem to be missing the point here.  Sure fast greens are very fun.  But this has nothing to do with any of us four or five putting - the point is some get so fast that the ball either blows around due to the wind, or won't stay near any pin position on any sort of contour just due to gravity.

Do you really think hitting a moving ball would be fun?

What about the Pasa effect, where due to the gravity issue, the greens are then dumbed down such that the pins are put on the only flat portions... which the ball will naturally roll to anyway?

TH

[JESII]

I'm with John on this one. As if it was not clear by the thread topic  , but I can imagine "over-the-top" it's just that I don't think I've ever seen it. The only negative I see with 11+ foot stimpmeter readings is pinnable space. So having the green speeds at a particular course really vary might be an idea. I know our superintendent practices this to an extent, in the late fall and early spring when speeds are down a bit we get some really tough pins, but then as the season rolls on and the goal is for consistency in green speeds only a limited area of each green is usable and the wear that follows is probably a negative.

I wonder if there are any negatives from a maintenance perspective to adjusting greens speeds by a fairly wide margin during the primary growing season. I guess you'd have to change mower heights and schedules, what else would go into it?

[Tom Huckaby]

JES:

Come play Pasatiempo - you will understand very clearly - the contours there cause the pin position dumbing down you understand.

Re Sand Hills or the courses at Bandon or any other place where the wind can blow very hard, picture a ball at rest suddenly getting blown around by the wind - that only occurs when the greens are VERY fast - at slower speeds, the ball won't get blown around.  

Both of these situations take golf to a level of absurdity that surely can't be what one has in mind playing the game.

That would be what one means by saying they are "over-the-top."  I suppose one does have to see it to believe it, but man you're pretty astute, and this doesn't take THAT much imagination.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

Why are you talking to me about Pasa...I had a great time there and don't recall any problems with the greens.  I won't bother bringing up again how I birdied 11 the one time I played it...but, then again do you remember the chip I had on 18...it was both crazy good and crazy fun.  One of the most fun chips I had ever hit and I was only a yard or two off of the green....why do you want to take that away from me.  Is it because some double digit handicap would have hit the same chip into the ditch in front of the green...poor uncoordinated bastard he may be..

I'm thinking of having a Barry Manilow cover douche come in and have a charity concert and send the money to Dave Pelz...Grow corn not greens..

[Patrick_Mucci]

As to too fast, then you haven't played Atlantic when they're 13 and the wind comes up.

I wish I could...who wouldn't think that sounds like fun.

Do you think it would be fun if you were in a competition ?

Let's say you were trying to qualify for some event.
How much fun would you have ?

Forget about the putting..fast greens bring so much more imagination to chipping and approach shots.

I guess there's a fine line between imagination and torture.

I doubt that the greens at Atlantic are more severe than at ANGC and we are going to see some fun this week.  

At 13 on the stimp, with winds that ANGC never sees, Atlantic's greens present an overwhelming challenge.

Why should I have to be one of the best 50 players in the world just to get to hit chips like we are going to see this week.

Why don't you recommend that your home course gets prepared exactly as ANGC gets prepared for the Masters, on July 4th weekend.

That way your club can target one weekend a year to have extraordinary conditions so that you and your fellow members can enjoy the same conditions that the best 50 players in the world enjoy once a year at ANGC.

I'll take a four putt here or there for the pleasure.

You wouldn't feel that way if those extra two putts cost you the tournament and $ 450,000.

Conditions have to be viewed in the context of the round.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

GOTCHA!

You played Pasa with the greens at about 9.5.  I was there, as you know.  Even then, your glorious birdie on 11 occured to the ONE pinnable spot on that green as it was before - the flat part in the front.  The back of the green was unpinnable.

Same goes for 18 - the only reason you had a chance at all is because you caught those greens on a relatively slow day.

Amp those greens to 11, as JES seems to want.  The result?

Your approach shot into 11 doesn't stay on the green.

18 becomes unplayable - not a single pin position exists where the ball will stay by the hole.  Either make a 25 foot uphill putt, or die trying.  Infinite putting.  Your chip?  Forget it.  Drop a ball - hell PLACE it - where you chipped from and it rolls off the front.

That's the point here.

No one is trying to deny you your fun - I'm trying to PRESERVE it.

TH

[JESII]

Tom and Pat,

When greens stimp at 11 feet you would need an incredibly high velocity wind to blow your ball out of place, trust me on this. 13 feet gets to be a bit "over-the-top" when a little wind is up, but 11 is very safe.

Tom,

From everything I hear about Pasatiempo, I imagine you're right that they can get out of control at lower speeds than most greens, and it's an interesting trade-off in my eyes of pinnable space versus speed. I would think the Crystal Downs green speed analysis would bea great test for most clubs to take.

[Tom Huckaby]

JES - I don't doubt you're right about the numbers - ON A FLAT PART - but add contour to the mix - and there's a lot of it at each of SH and all of the Bandon courses - mix in some wind... voila, the recipe for absurdity - balls at rest suddenly getting blown down a contour.

Re Pasa, well... I know you want exact quantities and details - sorry man I'm not that good at spatial issues to give such to you.  Just try and understand the basic concept that 10 or over means lots of unpinnable spots and/or goofy golf, 10 or less means all spots become doable, with large parts of every green getting this effect.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

Have you ever had a stimp meter in your hands and actually seen the results...I have and those greens were not 9.5 that day...As a matter of fact I doubt you could find a flat area to get an accurate stimp reading on most of those greens.  I just was greens as fast as insanely possible and Pasa was pretty close that day.  Do you recall the birdie putt I made on 12 to follow the one on 11 (not that I would mention that hole again)..It was at least 30 foot uphil and I didn't have to strike it very hard at all...

You can not tell me out of the same mouth that the greens I saw at Bandon and Pasa were stimping anything close to the same...Pasa was at least one foot and a half faster.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

You forget one of my golf-related activities:  course rating for the NCGA.  I dare say I know more about this than you do, having likely done it 100 times more.

 

As a matter of fact, I was part of the team that did the last rating there, in October 2004.  I did the stimp-meter readings on every hole we had questions about, which was every single one on the holes I did (7-12).  Still want to lecture me on how fast those greens are and can get?

You do have one thing correct - it is difficult to get a reading on most of them, due to lack of flat places.  

But I am here to tell you that the day you and I played there, they were quick, but nothing close to what they CAN get.  Remember 9.5 is pretty darn fast!  I have great confidence that's what they were that day.

And the Bandon greens would tend to be usually kept at around 8.

So they were a foot and a half faster.  They just weren't as fast as they CAN get - when things get truly absurd.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom and Pat,

When greens stimp at 11 feet you would need an incredibly high velocity wind to blow your ball out of place, trust me on this. 13 feet gets to be a bit "over-the-top" when a little wind is up, but 11 is very safe.

When you combine slope with high winds, 11 can be over the top.

Have you ever played Sand Hills ?

It's a course prone to high winds.

How about Seminole when the wind is blowing and the greens are at 11 ?  

With a strong prevailing wind out of the southeast, how do you think a putt on # 18 at Seminole, putting downhill toward the fairway, with the hole cut in the front, would fare ?

From 20 feet, how many golfers could hold the green ?

Wind and high winds are more prevalent at Seminole than at Pine Valley

A TRUE 11 is fast on a flat green, let alone a sloped or contoured green, and when you add in a strong wind, it can get over the top all too soon.

More importantly, do you think that Donald Ross and George Crump designed the golf course and those greens in the context of stimp speeds of 11-13 ?

Or, did he design them in the context of speeds in the 6-9 range ?[/color]

[John Kavanaugh]

As to too fast, then you haven't played Atlantic when they're 13 and the wind comes up.

I wish I could...who wouldn't think that sounds like fun.

Do you think it would be fun if you were in a competition ?

Let's say you were trying to qualify for some event.
How much fun would you have ?

Forget about the putting..fast greens bring so much more imagination to chipping and approach shots.

I guess there's a fine line between imagination and torture.

I doubt that the greens at Atlantic are more severe than at ANGC and we are going to see some fun this week.  

At 13 on the stimp, with winds that ANGC never sees, Atlantic's greens present an overwhelming challenge.

Why should I have to be one of the best 50 players in the world just to get to hit chips like we are going to see this week.

Why don't you recommend that your home course gets prepared exactly as ANGC gets prepared for the Masters, on July 4th weekend.

That way your club can target one weekend a year to have extraordinary conditions so that you and your fellow members can enjoy the same conditions that the best 50 players in the world enjoy once a year at ANGC.

I'll take a four putt here or there for the pleasure.

You wouldn't feel that way if those extra two putts cost you the tournament and $ 450,000.

Conditions have to be viewed in the context of the round.

Pat,

As far as competition is concerned and my game you need to understand that I am a terrible putter when compared to people I compete against....Fast greens are an equalizer for me because I have become the consumate lag putter in an attempt to overcome the demons in my head.

The course I play at does occasionally get the greens up to 13...when they do I usually book a room in town so I don't miss a second of the fun.  Of course....there are those who don't feel the same way I do and I'm not sure greens can live a prolonged time at that level....and yes I have hit a putt that went 40 yds down the fairway and smiled the whole trip down to the ball.

If two extra putts ever cost me $450,000 I will thank God for the opportunity and hide from the Devil as I am sure he will soon be round to collect.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

There's a line between sporty golf and goofy golf.
I think most enjoy sporty golf, I doubt that many enjoy goofy golf.

When a green becomes so fast that certain areas become un-cupable, isn't that the barometer for the speed that the architect intended the greens to putt at ?

If so, why would you want to make them faster at the expense of losing good hole locations ?

[Brent Hutto]

I'm totally with Mr. Kavenaugh on this one. Sure, it's possible to make a highly contoured green unputtable. But that's not a problem I've ever experienced. As he said, how often have you actually, in real life, walked away from a round wishing the greens had been just a little slower? I've certainly finished plenty of rounds where faster would have been more fun, especially for chips and short pitches.

In terms of the putting game per se too slow is harder to adjust to than too fast but basically once you get dialed in you can putt greens of any reasonable speed as long as the ball will stop on the least-contoured spots and the hole locations are well thought out. But slow greens absolutely suck the fun out of the rest of the short game. Pitching the ball onto a firm green that's fast enough for the ball to trickle for 10-15 extra feet with just a tiny bit too much momentum is a game. Pitching the ball onto a slow green is just a task to be executed correctly.

I love having to judge a chip shot (or putt from off the green) that has be absolutely creeping along from the moment it arrives on the green in order not to race a mile by the hole. And I have hands of stone, so it's not because I'm Paul Runyon wanting the course to play to my strength. It's just plain old more fun.

I learned to play on a public course with Bermuda greens. From around the green, anywhere from 10 to 80 yards, it was just a matter of picking a spot a few feet below the hole and hitting it up there with a sand wedge. If it landed soft that was a short uphill putt for par, if it landed a little hot it would roll six feet by the hole. The only parameter was whether you could hit somewhere generally around your target spot, you didn't have to control trajectory or spin and the effective target area was generally several yards across. My current club keeps their greens firmer and much faster. That strategy of just tossing a sand-wedge knuckleball up there and letting it stop somewhere in the vicinity of the hole goes out the window. You can land two shots in the exactly the same place and the cleanly-struck one with the right trajectory will roll 20 feet right up to the hole and the sloppy one that lands a little hot might leave a 30-foot downhill putt that can barely stop at the hole. Why would anyone want to play the slow greens rather than the fast ones?

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

How many pinnable positions are lost on upper portion of the 16th green at ANGC during the Masters...I know you wouldn't like to have seen the golf world robbed of Tiger's copy of DLove's chip last year.  I love the horse shoe chip and think it is worth sacrificing a pinnable position or two for the pleasure.

We may be getting at what the difference between private and public courses are....Really, how many pinnable positions does a course that gets 11,000 rounds a year need.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I have to agree with those saying that there is a difference between goofy and challenging.
Pine Valley at anything above a 9..is beyond challenging..the same for places like Merion, and links courses when the wind is blowing.

Most of C&C green complexes that I have played would also become rather goofy beyond 9 or 10 at the most...I like the putting portion of the game to be a challenge, but I done think it should be the decider/dictator by itself on what you score.

This week at ANGC for instance will be decided by he who manages his positioning around the course as much as he who putts the best...because I believe the two factors go together at the venue.

Those guys who minimise their 3 putts this week , will be the same guys who hit their shots into the correct portion of the greens in the first place.

[John Kavanaugh]

This week at ANGC for instance will be decided by he who manages his positioning around the course as much as he who putts the best...because I believe the two factors go together at the venue.

Isn't that exactly what we want from golf...I think Patrick and Huck are arguing that the greens we will see this week are goofy..Tiger putted in a ditch last year for God's sake...Tiger....

[Tom Huckaby]

Brent:

The funny thing is, I'm with Mr. Kavanaugh also in concept - make the greens as fast as they can be WITHOUT BEING ABSURD.

Neither he, nor JES, nor I guess you now, are understanding how this absurdity works - which is strange to me because you are all quite astute and this really isn't a difficult concept.
 

I have walked off of Pasa saying "that was stupid".  Some of the instances which precipitated that statement were:

#11 (old green, re-done since this occurred):  Both players have 25 foot uphill putts.  After 6 tries each - each time where the ball goes up to the hole, misses, rolls back to the player's feet, one finally makes it and the hole is won.  Is that golf?

The same sort of thing happened on 4 other greens.  In stroke play we may never have finished.  And it's not just the one round this happened, it became a relatively common summertime occurrence, alleviated only when they dumbed down the pins to put them in the flat parts where stuff like this wouldn't occur.  In that case, what might be wonderful greens with great interest become like little flat astroturf mats surrounded by contour.  Oh, getting to the flat parts was still interesting.  But once there?  Might as well have been home putting on the linoleum.

Now thankfully, this type of thing doesn't happen at many courses.  But here's a GREAT one that is beset by it.  The green-speed arms race just kills the interest at this course... or at least kills what it MIGHT be like if you catch it at humane speeds.  

Understand how this works?

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

JK - as a former President said,

there you go again!

Putting words and thoughts into my mouth and head that I surely don't have.

Who said anything about Augusta?  And the pros are a different issue - they can handle much more.  In any case, for whatever reason, Augusta doesn't get to the absurdity I've labored to describe.  It could be the pin positions, it could be the gentler contour than Pasa.  In any case, have you ever seen a ball get to the hole, then roll back to one's feet?  I sure haven't.

Recall the famous US Open Payne Stewart 18 at Olympic Club instance.  THAT is what I'm talking about... but even WORSE!

TH

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

JK
I think that this weeks greens will be borderline on the "goofy" scale..for most of us..over that line for the guys out there..borderline.
But that is ANGC..and we all know that is the way it is going to be..but I dont think we would want that spped all the time.

A friend of mine from England..about a 3 handicap played there last week, and made the statement that the greens even at 11 were the most chalenging things he had ever seen...now this is  guy who played in the centre of defense for Liverpool in soccer's highest league..and he said that the ANGC greens were harder to mangage than any forward, he ever played against!!!!