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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Are there really greens out there.....
« on: April 03, 2006, 05:33:34 PM »
that you prefer when they stimp below 10 as opposed to just a bit above? Maybe as high as 11.

Getting a real true stimp number may be tough for most of us, and I can certainly understand not wanting greens to get "over-the-top", but on a thread earlier somebody mentioned having played a Tom Doak course with greens putting at about 8 or 9 and that was perfect because any faster and they might get "over-the-top".

I am a big proponent of variety and so I'm not suggesting all greens putt at 10.5 feet, but I'm wondering if relatively slow greens are preferred, regardless of their contour.

Kyle Harris

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2006, 05:37:07 PM »
JES II,

A really good example of the just about 10 factor as you said is at Schuylkill Country Club in Orwigsburg, PA. Those Ross greens have a lot of movement in them and are just perfect at about that speed.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2006, 05:41:16 PM »
JES - absolutely - most of them at Pasatiempo GC, Santa Cruz, CA.  These would seem to be just like what's going on at Stone Eagle (the other course you refer to).  Make them anything over 9 and they become goofy-golf, with the ball not staying by any interesting pin position, just due to gravity.  Get them at 8 and they really "come alive" - all pin positions can be used, as MacKenzie intended.

I've railed on this issue only about 500 times in this forum.

 ;D


PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2006, 05:43:16 PM »
Crystal Downs has some that are unfair at that speed
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2006, 05:52:04 PM »
Strangely, I find just as much trouble on the type of greens you guys mention. I have not played Schuylkill, Pasa, or Crystal Downs, but have played plenty of "slow" highly contoured greens and I seem to struggle just as much as when they are a bit too fast for comfort. I seem to be able to adjust to the fast better, I wonder if this is my cry for "fairness". To me slow greens seem inconsistent, maybe that's a good thing. What happens at those courses when the greens are 11 feet or thereabouts? Does the ball have anywhere to stop? How dramatically does the pinnable space percentage drop?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2006, 05:58:54 PM »
Ideally, I want greens which roll truly.  Speed is very much a secondary condition which should be mainly dependent on weather.  All things being peak, it is hard to beat tricky, true, 9.5 greens.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Tom Huckaby

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2006, 05:59:06 PM »
JES - who ever said Pasa's greens were EASY at any speed?  I've been lucky enough to catch them uncut, or wet, in recent years and it's still some very tough putting.  It's just not the absurd "infinite putting" scenario where a putt goes up the hole, doesn't go in, returns to your feet.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  That's not golf.

NOTE the greens are "true" always.  They're just best when they're at 9 or less speed.

I'm not good with quantities, so I really can't answer your questions.  But put Pasa's greens at 11 - which is the max they can seem to get to, and thankfully doesn't happen very often - and I'd guess every green has absurdity to it, some in more than 75% of the area.

TH
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 06:05:03 PM by Tom Huckaby »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2006, 06:05:08 PM »
Tom,

I'm not looking for easy, and I did not mean to imply that Pasa'a would be easy ever, but rather I'm wondering how many different hole locations there are when the greens are 10, and how about 11. When that number really drops significantly we're getting a bit ridiculous.

And the follow up is, when a green is very puttable at 8 and dicey at 10, what is the penalty for misplaying a shot to above the hole when they are 8?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2006, 06:09:01 PM »
JES:

Understood.  As I say, I'm not good with quantities - so I'll stick with every green losing at least 25% of it's area as pinnable, some losing as much as 75%.

And the point is this:  at speeds over 10, there's no such thing as being above the hole on most of the greens!  The ball won't stay there!  So your second question is moot...

I swear to you the greens are perfect at 9.  You will have severe downhill putts that will be VERY difficult.  You'll have side-hill putts that break a LOT.  This will effect approach shots and chips as well as putting on its own.  

Make them more than that, and all you have is a succession of fast flat putts to the tiny pinnable spots, unless they get sadistic with the positions, in which case you have goofy golf.

TH

Ian Andrew

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2006, 06:12:54 PM »
I played Pinehurst #2 last week and they are being kept at a "resort speed" of 9 feet for playability according to Paul Jett. They were still difficult, but very playable. Anything above would be certain madness.

....and I still putted into a bunker after hitting the green in regulation!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2006, 06:13:31 PM »
Point of interest -- how many cuppable spots are there on Pasatiempo #8, #16, #18 when the greens stimp 11?

Hint: not many!  :o ::)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 06:14:00 PM by Bill_McBride »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2006, 06:18:08 PM »
Bill - in addition to those, each of these has a large effect when too quick:

1 - front becomes false
2 - downhill putts don't stop, only pinnable area is way back and way left.
3 - same issue
4 - left side is undoable
5 - good luck - all putts roll off green - area just above ledge over front right tongue is only doable spot
6 - Ok at most speeds
 7 - 1/3 gets really stupid
 9 - at least half is goofy golf
10 - same as 9
11 - greatly improved since Doak re-do - much more of the green is doable - but still at least 1/3 gets stupid
12 - ok at most speeds
13 - ok at most speeds
14 - ok at most speeds
15 - all balls roll back to front - goofy golf over 10, entire green
17 - ask shivas.   ;D
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 06:18:33 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2006, 06:41:15 PM »
JES II,

Seminole, PV and NGLA are amongst my initial reaction,

Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes and Sand Hills would probably be in there as well, especially on windy days.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2006, 06:44:27 PM »
Patrick - do the greens at BD, PD, SH ever get to that sort of speed?  I haven't seen such.  None are slow by any means - but my recollection of each of these courses from last year is that they couldn't have been more than 9.  Which of course is perfect at each.

If they do, well then shame on them.  I just thought each was immune to Pasa-itis.

 ;)

« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 06:44:44 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2006, 07:06:16 PM »
Obviously these courses mentioned have severe undulations in the greens..  How about courses with flatter, more tilted greens that turn goofy if speeds got too high.  I'm thinking like the Bayonet at Fort Ord...

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2006, 07:52:42 PM »
JES,
 
Quote
..."when a green is very puttable at 8 and dicey at 10, what is the penalty for misplaying a shot to above the hole when they are 8?" -JES


My understanding, based on a USGA article, is that it depends mainly on the slope of the green. An example: a ball traveling at stimpmeter release speed on a 1% slope would travel about 4 more feet at an 11.0' reading than it would at an 8.5'. Additionally, the ball will travel 6' more at a 2% slope, 10' more at 3%, 30' more at 4%, 458' more at 5%, and at a 6% slope the difference is infinite.

I look at the sharp line between 3% and 4% of slope as the point where a green stimping at 11.0' starts to get real silly.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2006, 08:38:56 PM »
"Crystal Downs has some that are unfair at that speed"

Paul T:

I thought the greens of Crystal Downs were a ball at that speed. I didn't see any hole locations out there that were over-the-top at all.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2006, 12:34:25 AM »
Jim,

A stimpmeter is rolling the ball pretty fast -- we're taking 8 feet of rollout even on a green considered quite slow by modern standards, after all.  Given that it is quite possible to make a consistent stroke on that green to make the ball go say six inches, I would assume that 34 foot rollout on a 4% would be only 2 feet with that smaller stroke.  So I don't think 11 on a 4% slope is excessive, though it is testing some finer control than most golfers have so it would be too much for daily play except at a club that wants to require the highest standards of play to do well.

I'm actually amazed that the ball would stop at all at a 5% slope.  458 feet?!  That reeks of being a calculated value based on some imaginary green that has a totally uniform coefficient of friction.  On a real green I suppose that ball would probably stop sooner since it would hit some sort of imperfection eventually.  I wonder how long it would take for it to roll 458 feet if it is theoretically slowing down slightly over time?  Sounds like that putt would rank very highly on the Kirk Scale of fun!

I've got to get out my handy handy little green slope detector (illegal for play, I just carry it for amusement value to check things out 'after the fact' and prove people wrong who claim putts are breaking uphill)  I don't know exactly what a 6% slope looks like by eye, but I sure know what a slope with an infinite roll out on a fast green looks like!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2006, 12:54:44 AM »
JES,

Stone Eagle's greens are pretty slow for Palm Desert, and would stimp around 9 most days.  They are still great fun.  Even short putts can break a lot.  I played it one day when the greens were fast, and it was playable, but very tricky and difficult.  I putted off the green twice.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that short putts on very fast greens have to be hit so softly.  I kind of like greens where the putts don't have to be hit so soft.  I'm not sure it's fun to have to baby short ones all day long.  It's more difficult, since it's easy to push or pull when tapping the ball so softly, but is it more fun?

Pacific Dunes, Kingsley, and soon Ballyneal are other courses where slower green speeds are assumed and built into the design.  Even at slower speeds putts have big breaks.

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2006, 08:07:36 AM »
Tom,

        I can think of 2 greens at Crystal Downs that were virtually unplayable when I was there: #14 and #17.  If you were above the hole on either green you there was no way to stay on the green.

        Prairie Dunes is another course where green speeds need to be monitiored or it can get out of control quickly.


       
« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 08:09:06 AM by Craig Edgmand »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2006, 08:10:15 AM »
JES II,

Seminole, PV and NGLA are amongst my initial reaction,

Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes and Sand Hills would probably be in there as well, especially on windy days.

Pat, what makes the greens at Seminole so special when they putt at 8 or 9 feet? Same question for Pine Valley.

TEPaul

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2006, 09:47:32 AM »
"Tom,
I can think of 2 greens at Crystal Downs that were virtually unplayable when I was there: #14 and #17.  If you were above the hole on either green you there was no way to stay on the green."

Craig:

I find that a little hard to believe and I'll tell you exactly why.

Last summer I went out to Crystal Downs for the express purpose of talking to Mike Morris about his green speed analysis program and green speed generally.

The reason I did that was I got involved with Tom Nicholai (U or Michigan agronomist) and his GCISinc.com service, a large part of which is a green speed analysis that emanated from Mike Morris's green speed analysis program at Crystal Downs.

Apparently the green speeds at Crystal Downs had gotten too fast in the past and Mike Morris developed a questionaire for the membership (or a selection of them) that was a form of a blind taste test on green speeds.

The way that worked is Morris would ask the membership to simply answer a questionaire on the playability of the greens on particular days although the membership selection was never told what the actual stimpmeter readings or speeds were.

Over a period of about two years the consensus on playability came back that turned out to be a differential of between 10 and 11 (I think it was---maybe it was 9.5-10.5).

I guess it might be obvious to say that if that differential produced speeds on various greens that were virtually unplayable the membership selection would've said so in their questionaire responses.

Ironically, when I was about 100 miles away I called the guy I was staying with at Crystal Downs and he told me we were playing in the member/guest that weekend. And so we did.

Since I was staying next to the course and I get up early anyway ;) I went out on the course both days and talked to Mike Morris and the crew. An assistant was stimping one of the greens and it was reading right around 11. I can't remember when we played, maybe in mid-morning and so I played the course with a green speed probably right around 11.

Obviously because of Morris's green speed analysis that morphed into the GCISinc.com green speed analysis procedure he doesn't run his greens faster than 11. (Determining the top speed not to exceed was the primary reason for the entire two year green speed questionaire procedure).

I had no problem with any of the greens at that speed and neither did anyone we played with. Sure they were fast and sure they were intense from some places to some hole locations but they were certainly not unplayable. If someone wasn't careful of course they could knock a ball off some of the greens but the reason for that was they just weren't very careful.

I'm sure some people three putted or worse from some parts of greens to various hole locations but that was because they weren't concentrating or careful.

So, in my opinion, Crystal Downs can run up to 11 on their greens and obviously Mike Morris understands that and goes no higher than that as a result of his years long green speed analysis through the blind taste test with a selection of the membership.

There was an interesting factor about those Crystal greens in the end of June last year. They were around 11 in the morning when they cut them because I watched them stimp them, but, again, since I was staying right next to the course I went out and putted some of them in the very late afternoon and early evening and by that time they had really slowed down---maybe to 9.5 or lower.

I asked Mike Morris and Mike DeVries about that and they both said that was because the poa at that time of year really explodes through the day slowing speeds down remarkably.

I really enjoyed the speed of Crystal's greens that weekend and there's no doubt in my mind what they were stimping at because I watched them stimp them.

But one other thing really did disappoint me about Crystal that weekend and that was the approaches just did not work at all. Balls landing even a foot from the front of some greens stopped dead. The reason for that was not wetness (because they weren't wet) it was really excessive thatch or matting. Crystal really should just bite the bullet and take a year or so and just solve that thatch problem in their approaches and fairways, and if they did that golf course would play just beautiful---eg right about at its IMM (Ideal Maintance Meld).


PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2006, 09:57:40 AM »
Tom - I played Crystal early in the spring last year and remember playing  a bit of ping-pong on number 9.....at least some of that might be due to lack of skill on my part, but....

perhaps Messrs. Doak and Devries could weigh in here....
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2006, 10:14:04 AM »

that you prefer when they stimp below 10 as opposed to just a bit above? Maybe as high as 11.



Tom Huckaby,

Here's JES II's original question.

With the wind, I don't think BD, PD and SH can stimp as high as 11 without creating really goofy golf, so I would prefer stimp speeds below 10.

JES II,

It's not that they're special at 8 or 9 feet, it's that fact that they're playable, fun, yet challenging at those speeds.

I think Seminole and PV start getting gimmickie at speeds of 11.  I don't think golf is about having to worry about keeping your putt on the green.

Putting off the front of # 2, # 11 or # 18, down, 30 yards back in the fairway at Seminole isn't my idea of sound golf principles.  The same can be said of several greens at PV.
One shouldn't miss a 3 foot putt and end up 10 to 30 yards off a green.

I think clubs, especially during competitions, have gone over the line of prudence when it comes to green speeds.
[/color]
« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 10:15:25 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Are there really greens out there.....
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2006, 10:19:46 AM »
Patrick:

Yes, I know.

My question for you remains do you think they ever get to over 10 speed, at any of those courses?

I don't, because I think each of those courses knows how their greens best play.  The fact you and I concur with them is just icing.

Disagree?

TH
« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 10:20:12 AM by Tom Huckaby »