[Kyle Harris]

Should an architect be trustworthy?

In terms of visual deception, should there be some elements where the architect's deception is somewhat predictable, yet a comfort barrier still needs to be overcame to execute on the shot?

The use of sight lines to throw the golfer off can be a very appealing architecturally and have a dramatic affect on a golfer's attitude and persona on the golf course.

Do architects effectively build (and then break at the crucial point) trust with the golfer through the presentation of hazards and slopes?

[Jordan Wall]

One of the things I hate most is hitting a 120 yard shot that seems like 70 yards.

One of the things I love most is hitting a 120 yard shot that seems like 70 yards.

I dont like the feeling, but can be a great move for a course that adds fun and challenge.  Uncertainty on many golf shots is what makes the game fun IMO.

I aslo enjoy site lines.  A little decieving, but if you really think about the shot then you are fine...

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

After you hit that shot... how do you feel about the rest of your yardages and what your eyes are telling you?

Did the architect break your trust in him?
Do you start second guessing?

[Kyle Harris]

Perhaps a corollary talking point for this thread is:

When does an architect build your trust, and how can he break it?

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

After you hit that shot... how do you feel about the rest of your yardages and what your eyes are telling you?

Did the architect break your trust in him?
Do you start second guessing?

Of course I start secong guessing, unless its a course I have played before but in that case I shouldnt be deceived in the first place!!  Every shot I will check my yardages a few times to be sure, and sometimes I even pace it off, even if its a long shot.  I dont necesarrily know if the architect broke my trust, but maybe I am more open to the fact that I may lose his trust later in the round...(I hope that makes sense)...

[Jay Flemma]

I love and live by the doctrine of deception...so do most players...why do YOU think 17 at Red Tail is perennially the most popular hole in Boston...or even massachusetts for that matter.

[Tim Pitner]

Every shot I will check my yardages a few times to be sure, and sometimes I even pace it off, even if its a long shot.  

Please don't do that when playing ahead of me.  You're not Padraig Harrington and we won't be playing in the Ryder Cup.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim has a point there, Jordan.  Now I'm gonna give you the benefit if the doubt that you are conscious of slow play issues, but jeez do that too many times and you're gonna get hit into it Tim and I are in the group behind.

 

[Kyle Harris]

T(o/i)m,

You're actually playing into my point here. If this becomes the case and the golf architect can rattle the rhythm of the game... the trust has been broken.

[Jordan Wall]

I promise never to take more then 4 hours...
(on a golf hole...)
 
Kyle does have a point here.

Its confusing and certainly rattles me when I have no clue what to do.

Plus I wouldnt be slow playing because if it was deceptive to me it would also be for you guys behind me, T(i/o)m

[Kyle Harris]

I promise never to take more then 4 hours...
(on a golf hole...)
 
Kyle does have a point here.

Its confusing and certainly rattles me when I have no clue what to do.

Plus I wouldnt be slow playing because if it was deceptive to me it would also be for you guys behind me, T(i/o)m

The focus needn't be solely on yardage. Lines of charm are basically involved in this as well... especially when they make you aim in a way that seems awkward to you.

One of the most effective ways of doing this is the carry bunker that baits the player into a less than optimum position visually on the next shot.

[Tim Pitner]

I promise never to take more then 4 hours...
(on a golf hole...)
 
Kyle does have a point here.

Its confusing and certainly rattles me when I have no clue what to do.

Plus I wouldnt be slow playing because if it was deceptive to me it would also be for you guys behind me, T(i/o)m

Jordan, I know you're joking, but conduct like pacing off full shots or looking at every angle of a putt irritates the heck out of me (and many others, I'm sure).  I'm afraid it comes from watching professionals on TV who take an interminable time to play.  

And, you would be playing slowly because I wouldn't stand around for an eternity wondering what to do.  I'd hit and hope.  It is just a game after all.  

To Kyle's question, I like it when a course causes you to second-guess yourself.  One of the better examples are bunkers that appear to be greenside, but are in fact much shorter.  Of course, these techniques tend to work only for a golfer's first round on the course.

Another form of deception comes from your playing partners.  When I was playing Lahinch, my Australian partner (who's wife was Irish and had played the course before, unlike me) swore that the white markers were 150 yards from the green.  Only after coming up woefully short on my first 2-3 holes did I realize that my partner was mistaken and the markers were actually 150 metres away.

[Jordan Wall]

Tim and everybody else,

Rest assured my pace of play is never[/color] an issue.
 
I cant help but love this question of an architects deceit to the player on the course.

Are there any examples of courses that frequently do what Kyle mentions, as far as trickery and deceit?

[Glenn Spencer]

This might be my favorite topic ever. I don't think he owes us anything. If an architect can make me question myself, then more power to him. Especially in today's atmosphere.

[Ryan Farrow]

The deceptive bunker is a whole lot harder to pull of when you always have a scorecard with a plan view of the hole with bunkers. When there is gps in your cart the architect has even less of a chance to deceive someone with yardages.

And Jordan if u did walk off a full length shot u would get hit into the next time you did it. Plus how accurate are ur walking off skills. For a full length shot chances are u might be 5-10 yards off.

[Kyle Harris]

Ryan and Glenn,
Thanks for bumping this, I think it's a neat psychological discussion.

As for walking off yardages. As a former caddy, I trained myself to have exactly 33 1/3 steps for every hundred feet. It's tuned and it works.

Second guessing a yardage book or GPS can be easy given different conditions and prevailing winds.

Remember, swirling winds can be deceiving as well.

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