[JESII]

I think it was George Pazin who started a thread a few weeks ago about greens that come alive at higher speeds. What course(s) really come alive when the bounce is up? I'm thinking more of stateside courses, but non-links courses in the UK and elsewhere would certainly fit the bill.

I'll submit Seminole as the posterchild for this. When the ground is firm and the greens have just a little speed the best players in the world will struggle with this "little" course. "Little" is not meant as derrogatory, but the reality is there are only a couple par fours where length is an issue and all four par five's are driver mid-long iron for top caliber players.

Still, hitting the greens is an unbelievable challenge and getting in the hole is every bit as tough. What a course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

Before I saw your answer, I thought about Seminole.

I think GCGC, NGLA, Maidstone, Shinnecock, Merion and a great number of the "golden age" courses come to life.

I think it's inherent in their designs.

[JESII]

What about their designs does it Pat?

I think it's the green complexes far and away, but driving angles and placement of hazards is obviously a big contributor.

I have not played Garden City or National, and Maidstone only once, but I would agree wholeheartedly with Shinnecock and Merion.

[ForkaB]

I'm trying hard to think of a course whose lights DON'T really come on when playing firm and fast.  Even my meagre little home course of Aberdour really shines when you have to think much more about the risk/reward of different driving angles and clubs used off the tee, where to land the ball on approach shots, the importance of getting your approach to the proper side of the hole, and how to putt highly sloped greens when they are stimping at 10+.  Of course, the bulbs aren't of as high wattage on such lesser courses, regardless of conditions, but they surely do "light up" in a relative sense just as much as the great ones.  IMO.

[Mark_Fine]

Rich,
I agree with you, what course doesn't, especially older designs that accentuate the ground game.  

[Sean_A]

I am told Painswick becomes a dragon slayer when the bump is up.  Perhaps I will find out this summer.  As for inland courses I have played, far and away the course that most comes to life in f&f conditions is Beau Desert.  So much so that cursing is obligatory.

Ciao

Sean

[TEPaul]

My next mission with clubs or anyone for that matter is to more accurately define what firm and fast is. To me "through the green" firm and fast is a minimum of 40-50 yards of roll-out and can get as high as up to 100 yards plus (as Donnie Beck mentioned last summer at Fishers Island). At the green end, real firm and fast to me is approaches that can take a ball from 30-40 yards out and filter it onto the green, and green surfaces of a firmness that sticking the ball and particularly sucking it back is a virtual impossibility.

To me THAT is firm and fast and the degree to which a course has it is pretty much the same degree the "lights"  come on, so to speak.

When the ball bounces and runs and runs is what it's all about but obviously the bounce and run of the ball will be even more interesting and unpredictable on holes with ground that is either undulating, sloped or contoured in various ways as opposed to pretty much just flat. One can easily imagine why holes like that would be more interesting and challenging compared to flatter ones.

Examples of courses and holes like that would be;

NGLA's #1, #2, #5!!!, #7, #11, #12, #14!, #16!!!!, #18.
Merion's #5!!, #7, #11, #18.
PVGC's #4, #8, #13, #15, #16
HVGC, every hole but about 2-3

Turns, curves, angles on flat ground sure help but uneven ground is what gets the lights up full with firm and fast.

Here's a course that obviously few have played yet but looking at the contour of most of the holes, if and when they get that course to the firmness and speed I just described it is going to be incredibly HIGH LIGHTS. It's the new Sebonak G.C.

A few other great examples I visited last summer are Crystal Downs and the new Kingsley Club.

[Sean_A]

My next mission with clubs or anyone for that matter is to more accurately define what firm and fast is. To me "through the green" firm and fast is a minimum of 40-50 yards of roll-out and can get as high as up to 100 yards plus (as Donnie Beck mentioned last summer at Fishers Island). At the green end, real firm and fast to me is approaches that can take a ball from 30-40 yards out and filter it onto the green, and green surfaces of a firmness that sticking the ball and particularly sucking it back is a virtual impossibility.

To me THAT is firm and fast and the degree to which a course has it is pretty much the same degree the "lights"  come on, so to speak.

When the ball bounces and runs and runs is what it's all about but obviously the bounce and run of the ball will be even more interesting and unpredictable on holes with ground that is either undulating, sloped or contoured in various ways as opposed to pretty much just flat. One can easily imagine why holes like that would be more interesting and challenging compared to flatter ones.

Examples of courses and holes like that would be;

NGLA's #1, #2, #5!!!, #7, #11, #12, #14!, #16!!!!, #18.
Merion's #5!!, #7, #11, #18.
PVGC's #4, #8, #13, #15, #16
HVGC, every hole but about 2-3

Turns, curves, angles on flat ground sure help but uneven ground is what gets the lights up full with firm and fast.

Tom

I hear where you are coming from and I agree with the greens aspect of your "theory".  However, assigning ideal amount of roll is dependent on the site.  On courses that have plenty of elevation change, plenty of doglegs, and plenty of trees, is it really ideal to have a ball rolling up to 100 yards?  Sometimes 50 yards can be excessive (though in my experience this is rare).

I prefer to think in terms of the driver.  If the driver is taken out of the hands of the player too often becuase of f&f conditions then the course is too fast.  I like the idea idea of  f&f conditions challenging players who choose to hit driver rather than making the risk too great.  Sure, it is ok to have a few holes where only the foolhearty swing away, but once the number of holes like this need to be counted is it overkill?

Ciao

Sean

[TEPaul]

Sean:

I hear you but in my opinion, this cliche of not taking the driver out of a player's hand is one of the biggest fallacies in all of golf---both back then and now.

Way back when the driver probably was used by many more players, particularly good ones, than in more modern times, but as we can see the driver is back in the hands of even the longest of the long. Today, there's even a new term for it---it's called flogging. Something needs to be done architecturally or maintenance-wise about the seeming impunity of that strategic ploy and really good firm and fast is probably one answer. The reason is obvious----eg with true firm and fast these ultra long floggers have a lot less idea where their ball will end up. It may end up much closer to some greens and it may end up absolutely screwed. The unpredictableness of it is the key.

And don't forget, when there is true temptation, aggressiveness for the brass ring becomes a greater consideration along with the clear pit-falls and consequently things get back into a better balance throughout the spectrum of available options.

I'm not exactly advocating that architecture or maintenance practices (firm and fast?) should take the driver out of a player's hand but to me there is nothing worse in architecture than when particularly good players grab their drivers without even thinking about it.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

I hear you but in my opinion, this cliche of not taking the driver out of a player's hand is one of the biggest fallacies in all of golf---both back then and now.

Way back when the driver probably was used by many more players, particularly good ones, than in more modern times, but as we can see the driver is back in the hands of even the longest of the long is back. Today, there's even a new term for it---it's called flogging. Something needs to be done architecturally or maintenance-wise about that strategic ploy and really good firm and fast is probably one answer. The reason is obvious----eg with true firm and fast these ultra long floggers have a lot less of and idea where their ball will end up. It may end up much closer to some greens and it may end up absolutely screwed. The unpredictableness of it is the key.

And don't forget, when there is true temptation aggressiveness becomes a greater consideration and in balance with other available options.

Tom

If you are speaking toward the best players then I agree with you totally mainly because it doesn't matter to me.  Those lot play a different game to me and they in no way are comparable to me.  If however, you speaking to the masses of slashmasters out there your last line sums it up nicely.  I want temptation to hit the driver rather than being told to put it away.  As you say, that is when f&f conditions really make a difference.  

Ciao

Sean

[Tim Gavrich]

I think the places where the "firm and fast" concept is important are, primarily, courses with large greens.  Take True Blue, for example, those who have played there.  The last couple times I've played it, I've been disappointed with the softness of the ground in many areas.  There would be some very interesting shots if one could reliably bounce the ball onto some of these greens and then use their internal contours to his/her advantage (i.e. pins on #4, back pin on #5, #6 both greens, #10, #13, #17 to an extent).

The same could be said, I think, of Caledonia.  But, they want the greenness before the maximum interest of the design.

How much does it take on the part of the clientele to accept a decrease in color for an increase in F&F?

[TEPaul]

"How much does it take on the part of the clientele to accept a decrease in color for an increase in F&F?"

Tim:

My feeling, and my experience to date, is if you give just about any clientele (in America this is) some really good firm and fast just a time or two they'll be hooked and the thought of the color "lush-green" will be history.

This is in America, mind you----the rest of the world doesn't seem to have such a large population of golfing idiots as do we.  

[Tom_Doak]

Absolutely the #1 course for this in my experience is Royal Melbourne.  I had played it a bunch of times in softer conditions, but when we were building Barnbougle I played it in the wind in winter with Mike Clayton and a couple of my interns, and WOW! were you in trouble when you got on the wrong side of the hole.

Believe it or not, Augusta was probably the same way back before 1975 when the greens weren't always fast for member play.  

[A_Clay_Man]

We saw Shinnecock play that way in 04', didn't we?

Yet many self procalimed afficionados said it was too much.


Every single GOLFER I asked about the Michaud Open LOVED IT !

Yet somehow, some faction was able to get the powers that be, to back away from the greatness Michaud wrought. Go figure?

In the aftermath It was so sad to watch them (usga) squirm. Especially, when they knew in their hearts, it was some of the most exciting golf anyone had ever witnessed.

 It was greatness personified and a defining moment.

 Apparently it was a total waste on the open crowd, as evidenced when Retief hit that amazing shot on the par 3 13th (is it?) Sunday. On the TV anyway, I barely could hear an applause out of the crowd.

Conditioning courses the way mother nature would, allows for the firmer conditions to appear, more frequently. While assisting in the long-term health of the turf. It's a no brainer, idn't it?

[Sean_A]

We saw Shinnecock play that way in 04', didn't we?

Yet many self procalimed afficionados said it was too much.


Every single GOLFER I asked about the Michaud Open LOVED IT !

Yet somehow, some faction was able to get the powers that be, to back away from the greatness Michaud wrought. Go figure?

In the aftermath It was so sad to watch them (usga) squirm. Especially, when they knew in their hearts, it was some of the most exciting golf anyone had ever witnessed.

 It was greatness personified and a defining moment.

 Apparently it was a total waste on the open crowd, as evidenced when Retief hit that amazing shot on the par 3 13th (is it?) Sunday. On the TV anyway, I barely could hear an applause out of the crowd.

Conditioning courses the way mother nature would, allows for the firmer conditions to appear, more frequently. While assisting in the long-term health of the turf. It's a no brainer, idn't it?

Adam

After all the grief I have been giving you it is a relief to finally agree you.  I thought the setup at Shinny was fantastic-including the the so called par 3 "debacle".  Then to folow up with Pinehurst was brillant.  These were the best back to back US Opens I have seen in many a year.

Ciao

Sean

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale & Mark Fine,

I think courses on unusual terrain, such as hillsides, and courses that have an abundance of doglegs don't light up when they're maintained fast and firm.

I think you have to be careful and not bless the process or conditions in a universal fashion.

Green Brook, North Jersey and Crestmont, three courses in Northern New Jersey might not benefit from fast and firm.

I'll have to give some thought to how Montclair would play.

[ForkaB]

Pat

By your criterion, Olympic(Lake) would play better slow and soft rather than fast and firm.  I disagree.

[TEPaul]

"I think courses on unusual terrain, such as hillsides, and courses that have an abundance of doglegs don't light up when they're maintained fast and firm."

Patrick:

In fact, you have got that just about backwards and upside down---which is normal for you about 98% of the time. Wait until you see and play HVGC and then tell me you think the lights would go up more on a course equally as firm and fast that is flat and straight.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom/Pat,

What makes Huntingdon Valley so appealing when firm and fast are how the fairways are built. Yes, some of the slopes are severe and dramatic, but the fairways collect the correct trajectories and shot shapes into little flat areas that allow the wily golfer to attack.

Holes like A-1, A-6 and A-7 all have the appearance of being severe, yet as the hole is played the golfer begins to relize how the design integrates rejection and collection areas and really forces a thoughtful approach to playing the hole. Until a recent conversation with Jim Sullivan, I had always played A-1 with a fairway wood or long iron and had a rather nasty sidehill lie wedge shot into that shameless harlot of a green that just sits there mocking you. My next round, I am going to pound driver and get to the bottom of the hill so I have a level approach.

Huntingdon Valley offers a great combination of defensive/offensive golf.

[TEPaul]

Kyle:

Believe me, there is no "best" way to play #A-1. If you think the key to success on that hole is to simply pound driver each and every time you will be quickly and sorely disappointed unless you can hit a driver with the consistency of the USGA's Iron Byron.

There is a fair sized flatter spot quite near the front of that green but there is also a smaller one on the left of the fairway about 100 yards out. When on the latter you really don't need to aim a wedge much more than at the left edge of the right green-side bunker.

One of the real problems with hitting driver all the time on A-1 when the course is firm and fast is to get the ball right into that flatter spot in front of the green you really do have to deal with some of the rough on the right as well as that lone tree which is just about right in the ideal LZ for the ball to first land.

The strategy for most players with a driver on that hole is ironically to aim right at that tree (which distance-wise is right in a driver LZ). I guess this is an example of that odd and upside down but prevalent strategy that if you actually aim right at something the chances are pretty good you won't actually hit it.  

[Kyle Harris]

Tom:

I haven't hit driver on the hole yet, and had, until now thought like you did.

The neat thing about that flat spot in front of the green is the amount of trajectory control required from back up in the fairway. More often than not, the shot coming will be a draw or hook, and that flat spot just kicks anything attempting to run on straight away to the left. It's one of the few greens at HV where you absolutely need to fly the shot on from the fairway (at least the right side... down the left affords a good angle).

[TEPaul]

"Tom:
I haven't hit driver on the hole yet, and had, until now thought like you did."

Kyle:

I guess I've played HVGC a couple of hundred times over the years and I think I've yet to hit a driver on A-1. In those couple of hundred times playing that hole I sure have seen more than a couple of hundred other players hit driver though. It's probably the ultimate in risk temptation, because when it works you really are well rewarded but when it doesn't work the chances are you probably won't make par.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

By your criterion, Olympic(Lake) would play better slow and soft rather than fast and firm.  I disagree.

Rich,

Why do you feel it's necessary to go to an extreme with respect to achieving the conditions that are best suited for the architecture of a particular golf course ?

There's far more to course conditions then Slow & Soft and Fast & Firm.

[TEPaul]

"There's far more to course conditions then Slow & Soft and Fast & Firm."

Patrick:

Truer words could not be spoken. I've found in the last couple of years that the term "firm and fast" is in no wise definitive or descriptive enough for any particular golf course. The way to apply the particular PLAYABILITY of degree of "firm and fast" through maintenance practices on any particular course is to define what the amount of roll-out is ideally. This does not mean that can happen all the time only what is "ideal".

On some courses "ideal" rollout could be up to 50-75 yards and on others up to half that.

On does not need to define "soft and slow" however, as that overall condition doesn't exactly have much in the way of degrees!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

There are a great many variables in condition between soft & slow and fast & firm, and each course should strive to find the maintainance level that best matches their architecture to produce the best golf possible.

Let's not forget about Mother Nature either.

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