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Sean_A

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In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« on: March 31, 2006, 12:46:00 PM »
Sir Peter Allen decribes Hoylake aptly:

"I suppose there is no famous links which offers less encouragement to ther first glance of the visitor than Hoylake...

The view from the smoking room at the Royal Liverpool Golf Club on the first floor of that supremely plain Victorian clubhouse in red Ruabon brick shows a vast flat space, apparently without character or guile, bounded by some uninspired examples of later Victorian and Edwardian domestic architecture to the west;...

Don't be put off:the reality is greatly different.  First of all this is a long, tough, supremely competent golf course, one of the toughest and most searching of the great links.  You don't get away with anything; what's more, the great long pros don't make a fool of it either."

Jim Finegan had this to say about Hoylake:

"For most golfers, the old links at Hoylake is not a case of love at first sight.  From the windows of the dignified red-brick Victorian clubhouse, the links, with roads and houses hemming it in on three sides, looks flat, open and sere and, alas, dull...

The course is almost always firm and fast, shortening it, yes, but playing hob with the tricky little shots around the green.  Then there is the wind, which sweeps in from the sea uniterruptedly across this level tract, where there simply is no shelter from it.  And finally, here at Hoylake we must face up to a circumstance that is without parallel on the great championship courses:INTERIOR boundaries.  Signaled by the "cop," very low artificial embankments of turf, they pop up only three times, but when they do they strike terror into the hearts of the timid and can prove ruinous to the player tainted with hubris."

Finally, Tom Doak opined:

For those of you with a feeling for the history of English golf, Hoylake, as the home of the great champions John Ball and Harold Hilton, demands nothing less than a pilgrimage.  For the rest it seems to separate the true lovers of links golf from those who only sort of understand it."

Ciao

Sean

« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 05:28:00 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2006, 01:01:18 PM »
A couple of quotes from Patric D:
 
Hoylake shares with bicycling the strange fact that whichever way you turn, the wind is plumb against, or at any rate unhelpful, across, or only behind when it is downhill, and you don't, anyway (eg the 13th) want it to be.

It is at hoylake that golfing desntists should be forced to take their holidays.  Hoylake probes relentlessly, finds the soft spot, and reaches for the drill.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2006, 01:17:08 PM »
I thought also to look up Horace Hutchinson, and I hadn't realised that the clubhouse today is on the opposite side of the course from where it was originally and that the course used to start with what we think of as the 18th, so that you were well and truly warmed up by the time you tackled our terrifying 1st, their 2nd.  I didn't realise, either, that 'two splendid holes The Stanley and The Road have been lost, as a house now stands on the old third green, and building operations have so shortened the Road Hole that instead of being a fine test of golf, as it used to be, it has become a hole of very bad length....'

I'll not continue the story - you'll just have to get the book down from your shelf and read on for yourself.  It's quite an interesting story.

Tom Huckaby

Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2006, 01:27:34 PM »
I'm curious about Hoylake.

It certainly has a reputation as a mean old bitch of a course, and these quotes just shore that up.

And whereas Sean can attest I am DYING to try and make a go of attending the Buda Cup - I live for events like this, would certainly enjoy a chance to play Hoylake and the other courses to be played, but a blessed event in August puts the kibosh on all such frivolities - well....

Is Hoylake any FUN?

Fun v. stern test is a great separator in here.  That is, how one prefers courses - fun (whatever that might mean) v. an examination of one's game.

It would appear to me that a course likened to a dentist appoint me would have a hard time being classified as fun.

Is it truly this black and white?

TH
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 01:28:08 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Bob_Huntley

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2006, 01:34:18 PM »
Sir Peter Allen decribes Hoylake aptly:



Jim Finegan had this to say about Hoylake:

 Signaled by the "cop," very low artificial embankments of turf, they pop up only three times, but when they do they strike terror into the hearts of the timid and can prove ruinous to the player tainted with hubris."

Ciao

Sean


Sean,

Do you think that Finnegan was referring to "kop' not "cop?"

'Kop' is the term for a portion of the Anfield Stadium the home of Liverpool F.C. taken from Spion Kop, a Boer War engagement.

Bob

Bill_McBride

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2006, 01:38:19 PM »
Bob, the 16th hole (160 yd uphill par 3 with huge gorse bushes left) at Crail's Balcomie Links, is called "Spion Kop."  A Scottish tribute to the Boer War.  The Empire lives!

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2006, 01:46:13 PM »
Cop is the top or crest as of a hill (and other meanings irrelevant to this discussion)
Kop is a prominent isolated hill or mountain in southern Africa.

We've discussed Spion Kop holes on GCA in the past.  I think there are around 20 so named in the UK and they involve a pitch up to a hilltop green.  The cops at RLGC are earth mounds two or three feet high.

Tom, I do find Hoylake fun.  To me it is not as punishing as Lytham which has far too many bunkers in range of all my different kinds of ineffectual shot.

Tom Huckaby

Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2006, 01:51:38 PM »
Mark - thanks.  Lytham isn't an poster-course for fun either, from what I read, see, hear.

Hoylake though just seems to get the "going to the dentist" rep more than any UK course, even Carnoustie.  Why is this?  Is the stark appearance part of it?

TH

BCrosby

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2006, 01:59:41 PM »
Might Patric Dickinson's book be among the four or five best books in the literature?

Bob  

Philip Gawith

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2006, 02:14:42 PM »
Tom - the site is unprepossessing and the weather can be foul, so fun is often not the first word you think of.

But the course is a challenge and the club/house is magnificent - deeply redolent of the roots of the amateur game in this country. Only Royal North Devon I think bears comparison in this regard in the UK.

So the overall experience is great, even if the golf itself can verge sometimes on the austere. I think it is a bit harsh to liken it to dentistry. It is not impossibly difficult or quirky - just you have to be playing pretty well to keep it together when the wind is tough.

Tom Huckaby

Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2006, 02:19:53 PM »
Philip:

That makes great sense, many thanks.  Just remember though - it was Mark who likened it to dentistry, not me!

 ;D

TH

Andy Levett

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2006, 02:39:00 PM »
I agree with Bob Crosby that Patric Dickinson's book is superb. The full article on Hoylake is here (reproduced with the intent of encouraging a new reprint).
PD chose Hoylake for his ‘round of 18 courses’ because it has something unique to say (and for him to write about).
I see where Tom Huckaby is coming from with  the Carnoustie comparison but Hoylake is more multi-faceted – there’s a stretch around the turn every bit as capital ‘R’  Romantic  as  the big wild dunes at Machrihanish, Silloth, or for that matter much of Wallasey,  to balance the stern Classicism elsewhere.

Andy Levett

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2006, 03:36:48 PM »
Sean,
I loved the piss-taking analogy (who wouldn't?). I've sent an IM to Phillip with a 'dog eat my homework'  excuse why I can't commit now to the whole thing but will deffo be available to make up the numbers at Wallasey if required.
BTW, I'm pretty sure when we played Hoylake you had recently returned from Pinehurst #2 and said 'this is better'.  

Bill_McBride

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2006, 05:15:43 PM »
Sean, I am already nervous at the prospect of that first tee shot.  Will the course be back in its original (pre Open) configuration by then.  From what I've seen, it appears there is OB all down the right and also on the left, with strong prevailing wind from the left.  Just the ticket for my standard weak and worthless fade!  

Bill_McBride

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2006, 07:15:00 PM »
Aren't you glad we'll be playing match play, and partners at that!

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2006, 01:17:07 PM »
Dr Mac

“Perhaps the course that has been least disturbed by the hand of man is Hoylake....the course is full of interesting, strategic problems and the more one plays on it the more it is appreciated.

The 17th at Hoylake has somewhat similar strategic problems to e the 17th at St Andrews. It is also right up against a road and is tilted so that it has to be attacked at the correct angle, or else one is almost certain to slide down the slippery decline into the road.
If the tee shot is not placed in the correct position to the right, then it is desirable to refrain from playing for the green, and to play for the approach and take one’s chance of running up dead and getting a four.
But this is only one of the good holes at Hoylake. ‘The first is an excellent commencement to a round, and it also makes a good 19th. It is a marked dog-legged hole with an out of bounds on the right. It looks perfectly straightforward, free from hazards, but it is remarkable how many disasters occur at this hole. Its excellence is made by the angle of the dog-leg and the tilt of the green and the approach.”

Spirit of St Andrews.

Lovely use of the word decline, but hasn’t the 17th green just been moved by Steele?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Philip Gawith

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Re:In Preparation of BUDA FORE
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2006, 02:37:33 PM »
Yes, the changes to the 17th and 7th were such as to stimulate one R.Morrissett to go into print some years back citing these as being among one of worst acts of sacrilege perpetrated on a great course (the reasoning being, if i recall, that OB was a feature of the course, and these changes had done away with two key elements of that). Hopefully he will join us in October to see if he stands by that view. :)

On reflection, one way to describe Hoylake is as course that initially commands respect rather than affection. But over time, that respect matures into affection. That's my line and I'm sticking to it. ;D