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Bill_Overdorf

Apawamis Club
« on: June 04, 2003, 11:00:02 AM »
In the process of soliciting information on seeding new greens to straight poa I have had the distinct pleasure of exchanging emails with Bill Perlee, superintendent at the Apawamis Club in Westchester County, N.Y.. This original design is accredited to Willie Dunn, circa 1898 I believe. Does anyone here have knowledge of this track? It sounds like an old gem. :) . A bio on Dunn would also be interesting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2003, 04:39:08 AM »
Bill:

I know the course. It's a really old fashioned track and lots of fun to play and look at. It's also the home of the United States Senior Golf Association and where they hold their annual meeting and annual tournament which matter of fact is going on right now. I'm supposed to be there but obviously I'm not. The course was just restored by Gil Hanse. The front nine particularly has some great examples of some really good old fashioned quirk!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Wolffe

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2003, 04:53:43 AM »
To the right of the first green at Appawamis there is a ROCK which   came to the aid of the great English amateur Harold Hilton in the first playoff hole of the 1911 U.S. Amateur.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bye

Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2003, 05:18:04 AM »
Doesn't Apawamis have the famous Eleanor Roosevelt hole?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2003, 05:38:03 AM »
"Doesn't Apawamis have the famous Eleanor Roosevelt hole?"

Yeah, it does--it's the 4th, except that Gil Hanse just played the orthodontist architect and may have just fixed her teeth to whatever extent it's possible to fix Eleanor Roosevelt's teeth!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2003, 11:20:06 AM »
I believe your information is right about Dunn being the original arch. (although I think he built only 9 holes). Depending on who you talk to, the remaining design work was done by Bendelow or Park. There was also some redesign work done in the sixties, but I can't remember who did it.

It is as, TEPaul say, a fun course to play. The Eleanor's Teeth hole is amusing.

Haven't been out there since Hanse's restorative work but will get a chance this summer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick Hodgdon

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2010, 12:42:53 PM »
I was looking in a local used bookstore and found the 100 Years of Excellence History book of Apawamis for $50 in pretty good shape.

Would be happy to go back and get it (if its still there) if anyone would like it.
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

PCCraig

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2010, 05:12:49 PM »
$50 for an obscure club's history?
H.P.S.

Tim Martin

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2010, 05:37:37 PM »
$50 for an obscure club's history?

Pat-The club has quite a storied history and was one of the original member clubs of the USGA. As far as the value of the book I don`t have any idea.

David Stamm

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2010, 10:16:37 PM »
$50 for an obscure club's history?

Pat-The club has quite a storied history and was one of the original member clubs of the USGA. As far as the value of the book I don`t have any idea.

+1. Apawamis has a rich history and played an important role in early American golf.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Trevor

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2010, 10:48:13 PM »
Don't people on this website prefer obscurity?
"When expectations are low, they can be met"

Adam Russell

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2010, 07:10:27 AM »
Does anyone have pictures of this place post-Hanse? It'sa place that's always intrigued me. If I had any money I'd buy the book.
The only way that I could figure they could improve upon Coca-Cola, one of life's most delightful elixirs, which studies prove will heal the sick and occasionally raise the dead, is to put rum or bourbon in it.” -Lewis Grizzard

Steve_ Shaffer

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Joe Bausch

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2010, 09:19:39 AM »
A while back I posted 1911 hole diagrams of Apawamis:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45876.0/
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Adam Russell

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2010, 12:07:44 PM »
Huh, those pictures make it look less inviting somehow. Seems to be a combination of flash bunkers, pots, and old chunked lips. Land movement looks awesome. Thanks for the pics Steve - I can imagine Eleanor'sTeeth weren't always circular  :o
The only way that I could figure they could improve upon Coca-Cola, one of life's most delightful elixirs, which studies prove will heal the sick and occasionally raise the dead, is to put rum or bourbon in it.” -Lewis Grizzard

V. Kmetz

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2010, 09:40:22 AM »
I haven't made a post in some time - since after the whole Whsitling Straits mess with DJ's penalty - but seeing this thread on Apawamis prompts a contribution.

I am going to try and make a more detailed post on Joe Bausch's older, linked "1911 National Amateur diagram" thread but to satisfy the brief curiosities expressed here:

Apawamis is perhaps the most difficult course to quantify of any I've ever known well. 

Most of the quirk and charm is front-loaded into the opening third of the course. But it so profound that you're probably shaken; to great delight or great anger by the time you play the blind approach into the 7th green, which is an amusing punchbowl-taco shell that pours out the back of the complex.

If you haven't gone to the poles of emotion and think to either demand membership on the spot or give up the game altogether, Apawamis settles into a traditionally stringent test associated with the nearby classic architecture in Westchester's rocky parkland. From 8-16, Apawamis doesn't really let up; sloppy play will not do. All the tasks are solvable but disaster awaits medal scores if mistakes are combined and/or repeated.

As the round draws to a close, a very satisfying visual and antique charm returns - specifically in the presentation of the par 4 15th and par 3 16th holes, which have a natural strategic beauty in their green sites.  The last 150 yards of blind ski slope tumble into the par 5 17th green returns the charm to quirk, as does the short par 4 18th - which navigates a tightened corridor of dips and dales, to an elevated green in a pine clearing

Whenever I have seen a thread that rephrases the recurring question, "What are the aspects of a course called a 'a better Match-Play Course?' I think to point to Apawamis.  Tournament amateurs, low handicaps and pros generally hate the place; it makes so-called "good" players very mad. 

I think that in all the blind shots, awkward hazards and tiny, oft-vicious greens that appear at Apawamis, the par 4 3rd hole, "The Dipper" is the extreme pole of what is a match play hole, as distinct from any other type.  It is the second shot, the most outrageous culmination of a two-shotter I've ever seen, that does it.

Most drives on this 330 yard hole end up 140-80 yards from the green.  You can drive no father than that without great peril because at about that 80 yard mark, the hole drops straight off what is best described as a cliff - about 30 feet nearly straight down into chasm, which is where the tiny green sits, pitched to the back right, surrounded by six traps on all but the rear, where lost-ball OB oblivion waits.

If you haven't  gleaned the experience from my poor description, think of the famous 7th at Pebble Beach...but played blind from the 6th green further back from the view.  It's a drop shot off a cliff to an indistinct target of partial distance that can never be precisely measured.

Jack Nicklaus may not skull or duff a short iron like occasionally like we do, but on this hole and this shot, once we get it in the air, it's all up to fortune, a gust of wind and an apt bounce.

I suppose the Match Play course/hole point is that a hole of this design, says "There is no, benefit, advantage safety or relative fairness for either side.  It does not match the player in their skill beyond minimum competence, it matches and compares the player in their fortune."

Some other notes/inquiries that has been part of the thread to date:

1.  Gil Hanse - who for Tallgrass alone has become one of my favorite of current architects - did a fine job with this reno-storation.  in fairness and disclosure, I only played and worked the course twice before his work.  Odddly enough as I'm typing this post, I have the "Golf Course Master Plan" from 2001 in front of me, and have its entire all-but-final script to reference. 

2.  I wish I had the Club History for $50 - if I had $50.  The point is that Apawamis is one of the more important club histories we have to examine...for its connection and contributions to American golf's origins including the 1911 Amateur... for its role in the USSGA and and its famiilarity to many notable players over the years (I think Ben Hogan called it the hardest short course in America)

cheers

vk

"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

V. Kmetz

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2010, 12:08:14 PM »
In the ephemera column I wanted to add the following...

A.  Hilton's Rock - This "monument," being as it is, on the very first hole (the 37th hole for Hilton in 1911) brings the antique flavor right to the forefront of the mind at Apawamis, you get instant gratification of its charm, for though it has other noteworthy quirks (like Eleanor's Teeth on the 4th) it's most famous item is seen in the first minutes of the tour. However, like Plymouth Rock in MA, the large solid craggy outcropping that hovers over the right side of the green which has a now-weathered brass plaque affixed that commemorates the winning shot is not the actual McCoy. It LOOKS like the precise kind of God-like agent to have caused Hilton's result but the truth appears far less extraordinary to me. I have read most every post-facto literary account and one contemporary newspaper account about Harold Hilton's flared spoon that winningly ended up on the green surface and having surveyed both the ground and the rock and the accounts I can reasonably tell you that the shot deflected off the sloped broken ground a little short and right of the great formation that has the plaque.  Today that area is largely consumed by a bunker, that was there a long time and rebuilt by Hanse but not present in the 1911 Amateur.

B.  Eleanor's Teeth (on the 326 yard 4th hole, which is actually called "Plateau")  This famed bunker array was also NOT yet present for the 1911 version of the hole.  I believe I've see an 1925 aerial of Apawamis where they are present, so that may date their addition in those 13 years (1912-1925).  In any event, the hole is one of the best looking and fun holes I've played. The 13 (now 15 after Hanse's work) small pits and pots that smile at you as you play a short pitch over them to a wickedly tiered green are one of Golf's unique sights.

C.  If you're up on this sort of historical item, its both amusing and apt that the 11th hole at Apawamis was - at the time of the 1911 Amateur - considered "the hardest hole in america" (Hilton himself may be the origin of the sentiment).  Though it's 385 yards , OB right and menacing water hazard still hector and frame play all the way to the green, it doesn't seem possible to be worthy of the appelage...until you think about the relative imprecision of play back then...my god it must have been a bear with hickories and Haskells. Taken in context with the remembered Hogan quote ("hardest short course in america") from a later era, you may get a vicarioustouch of  experience of being there...the courses feels historic and "of a standard" that has been known for many years.  it's a very integrated and pleasing aesthetic and one of the reasons you can overlook the medal diffuclties presented by heavy quirk.

D.  Besides the course and the association with early patronage of American golf, Apawamis was a seat of WASP wealth and high society for most of its first half-century and beyond.  Among the more notable social engagements and connections this occasioned was the marriage of George HW Bush (41) and Barbara Bush.  There are many such curiosities and ephemera associated with this club and so their club history, while desirably obscure, has a lot of value for sheer socio-cultural history.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Andy Hughes

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Re: Apawamis Club
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2010, 11:39:14 AM »
V. Kmetz, I'm sorry have nothing at all to add but I very much enjoyed your posts on Apawamis! Thanks.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

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