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T_MacWood

Robert White
« on: March 23, 2006, 08:09:41 AM »
I've only seen one White course, Cincinnati CC, and I think he inherited quite a bit of that quirky course. What are the impressions of some of his other courses like Manasquan River, Longue Vue, Wolf Hollow, Skytop, etc.?

Does his work have any distinguishing characteristics?

wsmorrison

Re:Robert White
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2006, 08:26:17 AM »
Tom,

I don't have any idea how much of Robert White's design remains at Skytop.  It meanders in many directions so that the wind must be carefully considered at all times.  It has some nice elevation changes but is not memorable in a positive manner.  As I recall the greens are small without much contouring. It has been about 13 years since I was there so my recollections are likely not of any help.

TEPaul

Re:Robert White
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2006, 08:30:25 AM »
I think Longue Vue C. is a good course, a lot of fun to play on some very interesting quick elevation change topography. One of the holes there is where I got my idea for a "play-back" hole when I happened to turn around while walking away from the green and noticed the green looked like it could play easier coming at it from the opposite direction.

White's Berleigh G.C. is also a pretty good course and actually may've been even more interesting originally than the way it is now.

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert White
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2006, 09:48:53 AM »
Tom,
I have played at least two White courses that I know of (and probably more): Glenbrook and Wolf Hollow, today's Water Gap.
The routings are very tight, easily walkable. As Wayne mentioned, there is not a lot of contour in the greens and they are not overlarge.  The courses have quite a bit of elevation change: some severe, some more subtle, and White is not shy about playing directly down hills, over hills or along side them. Not is he the least bit bashful about blind shots.

He did seem to like short, perched par 3s with 'death' around. Glenbrook (which I know far better) has two and Water Gap at least one.  The 7th at Glenbrook is an 'X' waiting to happen for any shot hit long or left.  The 17th has a very steep drop to a bunker left, woods down the hill just right.  Someone posted a picture last year (maybe you Tom?) of a par 3 at Water Gap/Wolf Hollow with a similar 'death' left, but the hole looked far starker and cooler in the old pic than its modern overtreed/overgrown iteration.

I suspect White did almost no earth-moving, though numerous greens at Glenbrook are raised up a bit above the fairway.  #3 is raised at least 5-6' above the surrounding ground and is couched into a hill behind it. The green-couched-into-a-hill theme is repeated elsewhere to good effect.  #16 at Glenbrook may be the best hole, a short par 4 with a green built into the hill right with a falloff to a bunker left.

Both courses have par 5s with severely sloping fairways off the tee, and when the conditions are firm and dry each fairway is almost unhittable. I think this is just a function of White creating with what was there, and I think the 18th at Gelnbrook is actually a very fun, tempting hole.

Matt Ward and I have disagreed about these courses, but I find them to be fun and enjoyable, and in many places quite strategic and challenging. Matt does not.  Conditioning is not great, and I honestly have no idea how much is even original White any longer. My hunch is that little has really changed over the years from what White created, and both courses would truly benefit from a real restoration (I haven't played either course in 20 years, so this may have already happened). I suspect his bunker work has not fared well, and that what he created was much better than what is left today.  I think White took some interesting, challenging land and without moving much dirt created interesting layouts and fun holes.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2006, 09:49:40 AM by Andy Hughes »
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Mike_Cirba

Re:Robert White
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2006, 12:50:59 PM »
Tom,

I've played 10 RWhite courses and have heard good things from redanman about 2 others in the PA/NJ region I've yet to visit.

Andy made some good points and I'll try to chime in later to add some comments.  

Courses of White's I've played;

Berkleigh CC
Buck Hill Falls (9 of 27)
East Potomac Park
Glenbrook
Green Hills
Mount Pocono
Pine Lakes Intl. (SC)
Skytop
Water Gap
Wiscasset (NLE)

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Robert White
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2006, 01:09:23 PM »
White added 9 holes at Colonia in NJ in the 1920s. Which 9 is not revealed in the club's website.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Cirba

Re:Robert White
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2006, 01:48:11 PM »
White added 9 holes at Colonia in NJ in the 1920s. Which 9 is not revealed in the club's website.

Steve,

There are a number of NY/NJ/CT Metro courses that White had a hand in.  I don't have it in front of me at present, but the book "Golf Clubs of the MGA" have a number of attributions to White.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Robert White
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2006, 01:51:34 PM »
Steve,
That would be the second nine!  ;D

Tom,
He did two 18s, the Red and the Black courses, at D. Fairchild Wheeler in Fairfield, Ct. I haven't played there in a while but remember it as being hilly in places with generous fairways on some holes but pretty tight on others. The terrain was the most memorable feature for me, in some places a shot just a bit short of a landing area could roll back to your feet (well, almost that far).
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Chris_Blakely

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Re:Robert White
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2006, 02:02:24 PM »
I have played the following Robert White Courses:

Water Gap CC (FNA Wolf Hollow CC)
Green Hills GC
Buck Hill Falls GC - Red Course
Skytop Lodge
Glenbrook GC
Mount Pocono (not much White remaining here)

Skytop Lodge is almost all White, I know of two holes that are not his:  the 7th and 8th holes were eliminated for creation of the practice area for the golf school, these holes run near the 9th hole, I believe the greens may still be there, but the holes are used for practice now.

I would second Andy's statement that White moved very little earth, his fairways at the 18th at Glenbrook and several holes at Buck Hill Falls would also back that up.

Robert White's courses are very much on the quirky side with some unique green locations often on very tough sites.

I have enjoyed all my rounds on Robert White courses except Mount Pocono.  However, I believe several holes used to be located across the street and what is there now is maybe half White.

Andy Hughes

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Re:Robert White
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2006, 10:01:28 AM »
Quote
Andy made some good points and I'll try to chime in later to add some comments.  

Mike, I look forward to your comments.
I didn't realize Pine Lakes was a White course--I suppose I should have felt something inside having grown up at Glenbrook but I didn't. Maybe 'cause my one go I was too busy shivering, but I never noticed any similarity

PS Chris Blakely sounds like a kindred Poconos spirit! Poor guy, next he'll admit to a fondness for Mt Manor  ;)
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

mark chalfant

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Re:Robert White
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2006, 10:19:01 AM »
tom:  Manasquan  River is quite interesting, especially   the first eleven holes. Lots of elevation changes, movement in the fairways and nice greens. plus one or two tee shots over
deep ravines.

Sean_Tully

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Re:Robert White
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2006, 02:15:25 PM »
I found it interesting going through the SF Chronicle to find a cartoon that shows some golfers playing a hole and having a hard time of it. In one of the captions they mention Robert White and his work at one of the holes at Wykagyl CC. Maybe the cartoon was syndicated, just thought it was funny that it made it all the way to California. As soon as I can find it I can post the details if anyone is interested.

Tully

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re:Robert White
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2006, 02:29:30 PM »
I used to work at Silver Spring many years ago and would put it in the hidden gem category.  It probably is among the hardest clubs to find in metro-NY and makes you feel as though you are in another world.  The green complexes are severe in areas, and every green is very well protected with fairly deep bunkering.  

George_Bahto

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Re:Robert White
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2006, 06:42:39 PM »
Robert Mercer Deruntz:

My research showed Charles Banks designed the course (1929-1930) before he died and that Robert White, a close friend of Macdonald, Raynor and Banks) built the course, mostly, according to the Banks original plans.

I was there a number of years ago and could see the Mac/Raynor skeleton of holes throughout the course.

Do you know if they have the 1928 aerial from Hartford?

I meant to get it when I got the CC Fairfield, Yale and Greenwich group.

Would love to see what actually hit the ground.

E Mail me with the info if you'd rather - just wondering how much early material thgey have.

ggb313@aol.com     thanks
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Andy Hughes

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Re:Robert White
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2006, 10:29:29 AM »
Bump, hoping the Mr Cirba will add what he knows about typical White features/courses
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Mike_Cirba

Re:Robert White
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2006, 10:30:36 AM »
Andy,

I'll try to give it a shot this afternoon.

Thanks for the reminder.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Robert White
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2006, 04:43:40 PM »
Ok..let's see if I can try to summarize some characteristics I've found in Robert White's work.

His design career seemed to span from about 1910 until the late 1930s, with most of his design work taking place in the 20s during the Golden Age.  In fact, one of his courses, the 9 hole Green Hills GC from 1939 is about 15 minutes from my house and is virtually untouched in terms of revisions over the years.

White came over here at the behest of Tillinghast, not sure the exact arrangement, but he was the early Superintendent at Shawnee on the Delaware, Tilly's first course.  As such, he was heavily involved in the early growth of the game in the Pocono Mountains, gradually expanding into NJ and into southeastern PA mostly.  He is credited with some designs beyond this region, in DC, NY, CT and South Carolina where his travels as first head of the PGA of America likely took him.

Much like his architectural contemporary Alex Findlay, White was first and foremost a functional architect, not an artist.  Neither man did much in the way of any earthmoving, preferring by necessity to simply route, shape greens and tees, and bunker somewhat sparingly, mostly around the greens.  

However, given that many of White's courses were built in the very hilly region of the Poconos, such a "minimalist" approach led to many a hole that could be called quirky or strange, or even amateurish given today's golf mentality.

I tend to love this kind of stuff while a fellow like Matt Ward generally detests it.  But, that's what makes for interesting discussion.

I've found that his courses on more severe terrain, such as Water Gap CC (formerly Wolf Hollow) can tax the most adventurous spirit and saintly patience, as patently unfair things can happen to decent golf shots, but on land where White had something more moderate to work with, his designs reflected sound principles and there is nothing inherently goofy about them, such as Berkleigh CC near Reading, PA, or Pine Lakes CC in Myrtle Beach.

If I can throw out a few generalities I've observed in no particular order;

* White seemed to love to perch greens on high points, oftimes with severe slopes to the sides that deflect misplayed shots unmercifully.  It's not uncommon to have a recovery where you're 25 feet below the surface of a green after a near miss.

* White seemed to have an affinity for using water as a cross-hazard, particularly when he had a stream to employ for that purpose.  A number of his holes ask the golfer to either lay up or try to drive over a creek, and I've also seen him use that feature on second shots to a par five as a gambling feature.

* Most of White's course do feature more internal contour in his greens than some of his other functional contemporaries.  I know redanman is very impressed by the greens at Northampton CC near Easton, PA, but I suspect those greens may be the result of Tillinghast coming by for a revision in 1930.  Still, even his most untouched courses like the aforementioned Green Hills employ both existing slope with some notable internal contour and interest to this day.

* White used very few fairway bunkers and was generally spare in employing them around greens.  In some cases, he used them to save balls from cascading down steep hills.  His bunkers are functional at best, hardly artistic, yet never seem poorly placed.

* One prototypical White hole I've seen employed at a number of courses is the one where the approach shot is downhill, to a green that flows from fairway level in the front, but is then built up on the sides and back considerably above the prevailing slope.  Such a hole is very daunting when playing to a back or side pin placement because the penalty for missing can be severe in terms of recovery options.

* White also uses mounding in a number of his courses, the most interesting one I ever saw was a "Mae West" feature on the par 5 8th hole at Wiscasset GC (sadly NLE) where the green sat in a deep saddle between large mounds.  I'm quite sure that's where White buried boulders, stumps, and other residue, but his mounds are most often used in conjuction with greenside features, complicating both approach and recovery shots.

* White, largely out of necessity, seemed to be unafraid to take on steep uphill or downhill or sidehill terrain in his routings.  At today's mowing lengths, it is largely impossible to keep the ball on the high side of some of his fairways.  Similarly, White wasn't above asking the golfer to drive over a large hill 100 yards in front of the tee to a blind landing area beyond, nor was he averse to having you play a blind downhill approach into a seeming chasm.

* As was mentioned, he seemed to like building plateau to plateau par threes that were all carry and featured broken ground between.

If I think of more I'll add to this.  Thanks!

   

Mike_Cirba

Re:Robert White
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2006, 06:45:35 PM »
One thing I find interesting to consider is the fact White's bunkers were both very basic in appearance and truth be told, not particularly deep nor fearsome.   As mentioned earlier, he also didn't build too many of them per course.

They were very utilitarian, but I find it strange for a guy whose career spanned the timeframe from rudimentary golf through the Golden Age and beyond doesn't seem the least bit influenced by the plethora of bunkers, nor their artistic stylings that so many of his contemporaries, particularly the most famous ones, routinely employed.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2006, 06:46:34 PM by Mike Cirba »

Craig_Rokke

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Re:Robert White
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2006, 10:55:20 PM »
I would agree with Mike Cirba's comment about Green Hills
remaining essentially "untouched". (Although I want to say
that Kittleman and/or Hanse may have looked at it in the last 6-8 years, but I don't believe any work was done.)

The entire facility is like walking back in time. Everything from the tee boxes, the look of the pushed up greens, the lay-of-the -land fairways, and of course, the very modest clubhouse. They really have done very little to alter the look of the place. It makes for a very inexpensive, but enjoyable change of pace.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the course was originally built for a family.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Robert White
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2006, 08:19:48 AM »
I would agree with Mike Cirba's comment about Green Hills
remaining essentially "untouched". (Although I want to say
that Kittleman and/or Hanse may have looked at it in the last 6-8 years, but I don't believe any work was done.)

The entire facility is like walking back in time. Everything from the tee boxes, the look of the pushed up greens, the lay-of-the -land fairways, and of course, the very modest clubhouse. They really have done very little to alter the look of the place. It makes for a very inexpensive, but enjoyable change of pace.


Craig,

I've taken my fiance's son to play there a number of times as it's almost never crowded and it's fun for me too!  ;D

Even though it's over 3,000 yards for the nine holes, I'm believing it would be a blast to play with hickories and such.

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert White
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2006, 09:34:27 AM »
Quote
Much like his architectural contemporary Alex Findlay, White was first and foremost a functional architect, not an artist.  Neither man did much in the way of any earthmoving, preferring by necessity to simply route, shape greens and tees, and bunker somewhat sparingly, mostly around the greens.
Mike, Glenbrook has nary a fairway bunker.  I am not sure I can recall ever playing a course (outside the Poconos) that didn't have any.


Quote
However, given that many of White's courses were built in the very hilly region of the Poconos, such a "minimalist" approach led to many a hole that could be called quirky or strange, or even amateurish given today's golf mentality.
Maybe because its not as hilly as a Water Gap, but I think Glenbrook escaped this.  There are duller holes like 13, but none  that seemed to rank particularly high on the quirk meter.  Water Gap seemed more along those lines.




Quote
* White seemed to love to perch greens on high points, oftimes with severe slopes to the sides that deflect misplayed shots unmercifully.  It's not uncommon to have a recovery where you're 25 feet below the surface of a green after a near miss.
This is spot-on right.  I would add that White also appreciated the value of OB being very near the target as well (Glenbrook 5, 9, 10)

Quote
* Most of White's course do feature more internal contour in his greens than some of his other functional contemporaries.  I know redanman is very impressed by the greens at Northampton CC near Easton, PA, but I suspect those greens may be the result of Tillinghast coming by for a revision in 1930.  Still, even his most untouched courses like the aforementioned Green Hills employ both existing slope with some notable internal contour and interest to this day.
Mike, are you aware of White employing 2-tier greens like the 1st at Glenbrook (the par 3)?  That hole has an upper tier that was very rarely used, and it never seemed to 'fit' to me--any thoughts on whether it was White's or added later?

Quote
* White used very few fairway bunkers and was generally spare in employing them around greens.  In some cases, he used them to save balls from cascading down steep hills.  His bunkers are functional at best, hardly artistic, yet never seem poorly placed.
That is certainly true today--while there are several bunkers that are well below the green at Glenbrook (8 and 17 come immediately to mind), none is in any way impressive or artistic. That is why I was so struck by the old Wolf Hollow picture posted last year of the front side par 3--it was an impressive, flowing work of art.

Quote
* One prototypical White hole I've seen employed at a number of courses is the one where the approach shot is downhill, to a green that flows from fairway level in the front, but is then built up on the sides and back considerably above the prevailing slope.  Such a hole is very daunting when playing to a back or side pin placement because the penalty for missing can be severe in terms of recovery options.
I never thought about it but that is true.  And even those that did not start level with the fairway at the front were still built up a bit from the surrounds.  Decent shots that just missed could leave very dicey recoveries.  At other holes (Glenbrook 5, 6, 7, 8, 16, 17) the recovery could be virtually impossible.


Quote
Similarly, White wasn't above asking the golfer to drive over a large hill 100 yards in front of the tee to a blind landing area beyond, nor was he averse to having you play a blind downhill approach into a seeming chasm.
Ha! I know exactly the 2 holes at Water Gap you had in mind.  Thank goodness for extra-long flagsticks (do they still have that one at Water Gap?)

Quote
* As was mentioned, he seemed to like building plateau to plateau par threes that were all carry and featured broken ground between.
Mike, number 7 at Glenbrook had two very different teeing areas. One down below and to the left in the valley and one atop the hill to the right. What are your thoughts on the hill? Do you think White built the entire hill?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Mike_Cirba

Re:Robert White
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2006, 09:48:35 AM »
Andy,

Yes, Glenbrook, by and large, is a more standard type of course despite the considerable hilliness.  Still, holes like 18, where it can be impossible to hold a ball on the fairway during dry summer months come to mind as still being indicative of my point.

In the case of the 1st green at GB, I have no reason to believe that the back tier wasn't built by White.  In fact, I'd be very surprised if anyone has touched that course over the years.  He built two level greens fairly routinely, and you can find some at Berkleigh, Green Hills, and others of his courses.

As far as the hill on 7, my assumption is that is a natural feature.  Certainly if White did any earthmoving at all  on some of the land he created courses on he would have leveled stuff, not created more hills!  ;)