Knoll (Banks) in nj ?

[mark chalfant]

George Bahto is doing very good work here. Has anyone played it this year. how many of the  18 holes are restored and how many remain ? A few photos would be great   thanks

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

Arguably, the best starting trio of holes among all public courses in NJ IMHO. Ditto the qualities of the closer.

For George Bahto -- this truly is a labor of love.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark:

Arguably, the best starting trio of holes among all public courses in NJ IMHO. Ditto the qualities of the closer.

For George Bahto -- this truly is a labor of love.

Matt Ward,

Why did you limit your praise of the three opening and closing holes to public courses ?

I can't think of many private courses that can match them, as well as the holes in between.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Coincidence... I was looking at George Bahto's really cool booklet, "The Legend of The Knoll" (circa 1993), this afternoon.

Anyone interested in The Knoll should try to find a copy of George's booklet, which includes descriptive sketches of each hole, and of course, a fine narrative about the course and its history.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Mingay,

George Bahto may still have some booklets available for purchase.

It's a terrific booklet and I'd recommend getting a copy.

Since George posts on GCA.com, those interested should IM him.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mark:

Arguably, the best starting trio of holes among all public courses in NJ IMHO. Ditto the qualities of the closer.

For George Bahto -- this truly is a labor of love.

Matt-

  To help you refresh your memory, the first hole is very good--a long par 4, with a Road Hole Green complex.  The green has all sorts of little rolls and contours in it that create a putting challenge, especially as most golfers will come into the green with mid to long iron.

  The second hole is also very good-a Double Plateau green complex which, due to maintenance and through no fault of George, does not play as fast as it should.  Having said that, it is a good hole.  

  The third hole, however, is where I take exception to your stance.  It is a Redan, yes, but is not maintained nearly as fast nor mowed as it should be--on my last visit there, a few months ago, the green was mowed as a rough oval.  In addition, it plays approximately at the length of my 7-8 iron.

#4 is a par 4, don't recall a lot here but a good bunker making the ideal angle blind.  There was something about this green that I can't place at the moment, but it was damn good.
#5 is a par 5.  

#6 is a decent Short hole, although I don't recall many details.  

I seem to recall George showing me some trees which needed to removed on #s 7 and 8, both moderate par fours.  

  #9 is a great Punchbowl Green, which is believe was larger  at one time. Bunkers approximately 15-20 feet guard both sides of the green, set up on a hill.  

I don't recall a lot of #s 10-11, but #12 was a great right to left tee shot, sloped fairway, and large contours in the green complex, with deep Banks bunkering.  

  The Biarritz hole (#13) here is wonderful--long, at 225 yards, front mowed as green.  I can't speak for this hole as well as George, thus I don't recall if it was meant to play as a full green or just the back half.  Green has deceptive roll to it, as well as some larger internal contours.  

I also don't recall a lot of 14-16, #17 is a decent Eden if I recall correctly, although not in the same league as the private club Edens, for obvious maintenance reasons.  

18 is a hell of a golf hole.  I do agree with you that it is a great finisher.  Something like 450-460, slightly uphill, and then uphill to the green at the end, which had a redanish shape to it.  I t was tough for me, and I fondly recall a conversation with George in that he wanted to make it even tougher.  Sadistic, I say!  

Overall, my impression was that Knoll (West) provided some good holes, some average holes, but better maintenace would make for a much better golf experience.  I do realise it's a municipal course, with the obvious pitfalls that go along with it, money, politics, priorities and so forth.  

[mark chalfant]

I remember  #5  as an excellent par five with super bunkering that creates tactical dilemmas on the drive and the second shot. my playing partner thought  #6 green was excellent. i especially like #13 and 15 on the back.#15 is a par 5 that doglegs gently to the right.  thanks

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

The opening trio of holes at The Knoll are indeed quite well done by Banks. You left out a few items -- allow me to provide a bit of a different take.

The 1st hole appears much easier than it actually plays. Given the elevated tee players are lulled into the false sense of security. The optimum pin locations can be either on the far left behind the bunker but in front of the rib that runs on a diagonal through that portion of the green.

The approach isn't very long -- likely a short iron or PW but I can tell you this in the many times I have played the hole you can count the number of times that birdie was made.

Keep in mind too that when the putting surfaces are returned to their daily speed -- instead of the shoulder turns that are required now -- the overall impact of the contours encountered will be that much greater.

The 2nd hole is one of the best holes in New Jersey -- public or private. At 440 yards you need to keep your tee shot down the left side and it is here that I believe the addition of a fairway bunker on that side would be most appropriate. The green is nothing less than stellar -- one of the finest Banks created. The bob and weave of the green is simply delicious stuff. If the pin is placed in the extreme rear of the horseshoe shape encountered you need to play an approach of Herculean level of skill. Here is another green that if cut and maintained will be a real bear to two-putt.

The 3rd is better than you surmise Doug. The approach is roughly just under 200 yards from the extreme back tee that is elevated slightly over the middle tees. The green is slightly angled from the tee and you must try to plant your approach on the correct side of a tiny ridge that cuts off the very front section from the rear. Generally, the hole plays into the prevailing SW wind during summer months and you need to pull enough club but not too much because anything that lands in the rear portion is very able to bounce even further into trouble.

Doug, the very nature of what Banks designed at The Knoll has been allowed to wither over the years for a whole host of reasons. Let me point out that when Golf Digest ran a feature a few years back they asked various key players to list their ten finest courses. The late Dave Marr included The Knoll among his ten best.

George Bahto fully understands the dimensions and difficulties at such a place. The opportunity is there but the overall pace makes the issue of paint drying seem so fast. The Knoll has a number of unique holes and situations and if returned to its past glory will be a layout any golfer should play when in the area.

P.S. I have spoken to George about the 18th and I mentioned to him it should be lengthened to recreate the type of second shot (long iron or fairway metal) that Banks originall envisioned. One funny thing about the 18th -- there was a fire of the original clubhouse a number of years ago and the picture in the Newark Star-Ledger captured the moment with a photo of the flames coming out of the clubhouse and with a golfer ever determined to hole his putt on the final green!

[Paul_Turner]

I agree with Doug, the 3rd (Redan) isn't a special hole.  Although the lump in the green does add some interest.

I general, I thought the greens are what make The Knoll.  A almost pristine set I would imagine?  

Everyone loves the Biarritz 13th and rightly so, but also I remember the 14th as an excellent hole.  Interestingly bunkered and a green that a big sidewise swing.

The are some dullish holes at The Knoll (3,7,10,11,17) but the greens do add interest on these too.

In terms of playing...a lot of the danger is long and most of the greens tilt quite strongly back to front.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Sands Point, Montauk Downs, Longshore (Westport, CT) and The Knoll are all examples of private clubs that have been taken over by Town or State governments. They sometimes are tougher to get on than their private neighbors, but often they get thrown into a “Muni” category.  Well I played The Knoll yesterday for the first time, it is no muni and it is time for Jason to get off of Long Island   and see a public course that really can compete with its more private and more famous neighbors, because the reality is Tallgrass can’t compete, but The Knoll can. Many of my Philly friends always want to put Cobbs Creek in the “could be Bethpage Black” category. It is not, but The Knoll is, and George Bahto has a good deal of work going on.

The Knoll has fantastic greens. George explained to me that due to some previous owners, the greens did not have top dressing for 30 years. Thus, they basically are intact. Some of the Plain Jane holes at The Knoll are supported by very interesting greens, something that cannot be said of The Black. The Knoll is one of the few old parkland courses (public or private) that is not overrun with trees. The corridors are wide, the course plays BIG similar to Bethpage and if you hit into the trees, you have hit a bad shot. The course plays  a long 6700 yards and George is adding a few back tees including 18. 6500 in the cold and wet was plenty yesterday from the whites.

First off, many of the comments above need to be updated. For example, the 3rd Redan bunker was just dug and is now growing in.  They must love George over there because nobody other than George could pull off “steep and deep” like this without some sort of cry out from the regular players. Paul Turner please go see it again. I did not recognize it as a Redan from the tee, possibly due to the construction, but the green fades away from the tee, and it has a unique look that I consider to be a positive.

Other holes of note (I had to skip 14-17 due to light) were the Par 5 fifth as mentioned by Mark C, The Short with a great green within a green, the monstrous big scale #13 Biarittz, both the 9 and 18 which finish halfway up the hill to the clubhouse/catering facility.

On the other side, the conditioning is good, but it was soft yesterday due to rain. However, those greens are crying out for a little more speed. There are some flat, straight holes that similar to Mountain Lake are saved by some interesting bunkering and greens, but certainly are not all Jersey holes. If Jason is not able to get his Union Cup group on one of the privates, The Knoll would be a worthy candidate for out of towners who want to see MacRaynorBanks.

On a separate note, our friend George Bahto was recently in The Wall Street Journal with the work he and Gil Hanse are doing at Sleepy Hollow, he had an interesting meeting this past week at National in reference to Old Macdonald which will open on the 100th Anniversary of National, and he is restoring his hometown club course with the passion of a Ross at #2. How good is it to be Uncle George right now!

[George_Bahto]

Mike, glad you liked the course .....  we’re back on track with the authentic restoration.

Before we dug out the Redan bunker on #3 the depth was a pretty weak 5 feet. As we excavated fo member’s certainly whining “too deep too hard”

But in all fairness this course was original built as a private enclave for 30 local millionaires in 1928  (Thomas Watson - IBM, J R Monroe - Monroe Business Machines, Janson Noyes who was a mover at Fishers Island to mention a few).

On the Redan hole now I have the bunker floor down to the original depth and you are now at least 12 + feet below the green - it is a PIT, as intended.

Tall Mike Sweeney:  “They must love George over there because nobody other than George could pull off “steep and deep” like this without some sort of cry out from the regular players.“

Interestingly, the player love it as they come by. You don’t really want to get in this bunker.

Mike you are right, at a private club I don’t think I could pull that one off although at Sleepy Hollow we’re getting down quite deep and steep.



gb

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S:

Glad you finally played The Knoll - now get Jason out of LI so he can see the light on what I've said about other public layouts throughout the greater NY metro area.

Mike, The Knoll has languished for a host of reasons and I am truly happy personally that the club has FINALLY gotten off the dime to do the work that George suggested years ago.

If there is a course with the opportunity to be so much more it is The Knoll and with George B at the helm that possibility certainly exists.

[Mike_Cirba]

This is great to hear.   I played the Knoll a few years ago and loved it, but it was tough not to see the dormant potential.

My friend George must be in heaven these days, between getting to work on the Knoll, Sleepy Hollow, and now Bandon4.  It couldn't happen to a better fellow, and I'm thrilled for him, even if he won't back me up in telling Mucci he's dead wrong about redan holes.    

I'm really excited to get back over to see the Knoll next year.   Of course, since the 3rd hole is downhill, we can't really call it a redan, right*?   So George, whatever bunker there you've now made 12 feet deep, you're going to have to come up with a new name for it!    


* According to the newly abridged, "Mucci's Self-Defining clarifications on Macdonald/Raynor template holes", which seems to be written as he goes.  

[George_Bahto]

* According to the newly abridged, "Mucci's Self-Defining clarifications on Macdonald/Raynor template holes", which seems to be written as he goes

but this is Banks and by the time he built this one he was feeling his "oats" and changing things ....

He wrote a response to a Dev Emmet article stating he thought the golfer should see the problems before him (or something like that)    -  so raised tees were ok for him ...... he was into letting you see the problems and then compounding your game around the greens

geez Mike, does that mean Jr Mucci wins again  ?  

[Mike_Cirba]

geez Mike, does that mean Jr Mucci wins again  ?  

Geez, Uncle George, I sure hope not, or you're going to have to start calling that 12 foot deep bunker in front of #3 something else besides the "redan bunker".  

I wish I could come up with a clever suggestion, but Pat's splitting hairs with definitions has me a bit tongue-tied at the moment!  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

George

When will your work at Knoll be finished? Is the course open for play now while work is being done?

Steve

[George_Bahto]

George

"When will your work at Knoll be finished? Is the course open for play now while work is being done?"

Steve - it'll be a race with the Knoll and this other "course on the west coast", which will be done first

The Knoll is a town facility and I can't get a "golf course" contractor because of the restrictive union problems etc and also the allocated funds are marginal ..... so I just keep pecking away.

My original proposal was dated 2001 and I'm not half done

but I'm not giving up on the project - if this was not the perfect-for-restoration-to-original project and that the course and greens are so good, I'd have thrown in the towel a long time ago

I will WIN this F---in' "battle" but talk about shoveling against the tide ...

anyhow, right now we're on a roll and I'm using a local landscaper but he's given me a good operator - that's all I need

the course is open - Mike Sweeney was there yesterday as you see above

stop by if you are in the area or call me. if you contact me e mail i'll give you my cell     ggb313@aol.com

[mark chalfant]

Mike and george , thanks so much for the update

George:   Glad to hear  that Sleepy Hollow is going well !

[Jason Blasberg]

it is time for Jason to get off of Long Island   and see a public course that really can compete with its more private and more famous neighbors, because the reality is Tallgrass can’t compete . ..

Mike, it's kind of tough to measure up in eastern Suffolk but if Tg turned private as intially planned it would garner far more praise than it does.

btw, there are only a handful of privates in Suffolk that I'd rather play if conditioning was the same, thus to me Tg clearly measures up, in proper relation of course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

Returning The Knoll to a private course, along with the infusiion of the appropriate funds and George's work, would elevate the golf course rather quickly.

It's got an excellent pedigree, interesting history and a terrific golf course that's challenging yet fun.  

At a par of 70 it's always resisted scoring rather well.

George Bahto,

Please explain to Mike Cirba the diffrence between CBM and CB

And remember, when doing so, that Mike Cirba thinks it's splitting hairs when people use phrases like,
"Black and White",  "Night and Day" and "Male & Female"

[Mike_Cirba]

George Bahto,

Please explain to Mike Cirba the diffrence between CBM and CB

And remember, when doing so, that Mike Cirba thinks it's splitting hairs when people use phrases like,
"Black and White",  "Night and Day" and "Male & Female"

Patrick,

Was Charlie Banks a disciple of Macdonald and Raynor?   Did he finish off many Raynor courses after he died?

Is the 3rd hole at The Knoll a redan?

Is the 17th hole at Mid Ocean a redan?  

Is there a reverse redan hole at Sleepy Hollow?

If the answers to any of the last three questions is "no", then why did their creators, men looking to build template holes based on the greatest holes in the old country, continually name and refer to them as such?

Is the 3rd at Pine Valley based on the redan template?

Why today would George Bahto, clearly the preeminent expert on Macdonald/Raynor & Banks call the left front bunker on the 3rd hole at The Knoll, "the Redan bunker"?

If it is a Redan hole, then how can it be when the hole is downhill, and the green is clearly visible from the tee??

You're swimming against the tide of not only CB, Seth, Charlie, George Thomas, Crump, Tillinghast, and others who knowingly built downhill holes and called them redans, but now you're swimming in circles!    

[Paul_Turner]

Revisited The Knoll recently, it has many outstanding greens: 1,2,4,5,6,11,12,13,14,15:  several with multiple levels.  

Even the redan, which isn't a great hole, has an almost impossible cross green putt due to a narrow ridge

The oustanding hole has to be the 13th.  Perhaps the best Biarritz out there?  About 240 from the back and the green contours are marvelous (almost a horsehoe in the top level?).

The most interesting holes tend to be the ones that are more open, the less interesting ones are in the woods.

My guess is that the architecture is close to intact, probably much more so than many of the private NJ clubs.  It only needs a bit ot tweaking.

Going private is a bad idea, the public golfer has miniscule access to classic golf in NJ as it is!

[Mike_Cirba]

Paul,

There's a redan hole at The Knoll?  

How could that be?   I recall a Short, a Biarritz, perhaps an Eden, but are you talking about the downhill 3rd where you can see most of the green from the tee?

You need to talk to Patrick.  

[George_Bahto]

hah !!

[Dean Paolucci]

Having grown up at the Knoll and learned to play golf there (over 250 rounds I estimate) I certainly have a soft spot for the work George B is doing.  The deep bunkers specifically 9 and 18 make you an expert bunker player.  Possibly the best Banks green sites I have every seen and arguably the best Steamshovel did in the Metropolitan area.  The routing is spectacular.  My hat is off to you George for persevering in the public sector with this project.  I'll bet it makes dealing with a private equity membership feel like a walk in the woods.  I can't wait for the finish product. Godspeed!

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