Architects - how much did your college education help you?

[Dan Herrmann]

Just curious...  Some like Tom and Gil went the Ivy League route.  Some probably don't have much formal eduction at all.  (although nowadays, a finance or marketing background would probably be helpful)

What about the Golden Age?  Did folks like Flynn/Crump/Ross/etc have schooling in design or architecture?

Does a degree in architecture/design type fields make a difference in the end result?

[Tom_Doak]

Dan:

I learned to read a topographic map in college, and I learned something of the "design process," though I skip some steps in practice.  But as far as the day-to-day practical skills go, I've learned far more in the field than I learned in school.  (Of course, I also went to The Pete Dye Graduate School, which was the best program in the country.)

Certainly having gone to Cornell is worth a bit of respect from potential clients -- I couldn't tell you how much exactly, but some -- and that postgraduate award I got from Cornell has been written about 500 times over the years, so in that respect my college education has been a great boon to my ability to find clients and attract attention.

[wsmorrison]

Dan,

Flynn had a scholarship to Williams College but passed that up to get married and design his first course in 1909 in Heartwellville, VT

[Tom_Doak]

Well if we're going to get into the old guys, Macdonald went to prep school in St. Andrews and Tillinghast went to St. Andrews University, I believe.  They didn't study golf architecture (in class).

[Scott Witter]

Dan,

In my 4 years in civil engineering, I learned a great deal about surveying, soils, soil mechanics & foundations.  Then, in my next 3 years in landscape architecture, I learned a lot about the design process...how to think in concepts, to assess and analyze site conditions, gained a solid understanding about the processes of nature...wind, erosion & water and about the process of professional practice.

I didn't need to learn about how to read and understand topographic maps in school, since I had been reading these for many years prior as I have always hiked, hunted and searched for great trout streams throughout my adolecent years, however, I will say that what I was searching for and attempting to discover when looking at maps in school had a different interest and identity.

School certainly helped, if not only just to direct me to find the information I wanted sooner and then how to apply it in a useful manner for my design goals.  My experiences before school, 10 years in greenskeeping, and 15 years in design and construction of golf  has done much more than school ever could, but that doesn't surprise me, now knowing the profession.

I really don't know what the REAL difference is between colleges with respect to actual learning and then the ability to apply this later in a practical sense...I believe this is all up to the individual once they leave college and it doesn't matter what school you attend, IVY league or not!  Going to Cornell, Ball State, Texas, or ESF Syracuse, doesn't mean squat when it comes time to actual practice, but for some it seems to have given them a boost to attract clients

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Jesus Dan that was so long ago and so much has happened since then that its influence is totally irrelevant now.  

[Anthony Butler]

Well if we're going to get into the old guys, Macdonald went to prep school in St. Andrews and Tillinghast went to St. Andrews University, I believe.  They didn't study golf architecture (in class).

Probably the most significant case of an education 'helping' an archtect in their design profession in the early days was Dr. Alister MacKenzie.

He was a medico in the Boar War in Sth. Africa, and he noticed that the percentage of injuries/deaths suffered by British troops in open field battle against the Afrikaaners was much higher. After he got out of the medical tent and into the battlefield he noticed that the Afrikaaners made much better use of the ground and surrounding terrain to camouflage their positions and troop strength.

He admitted that his philosophy of using existing terrain & natural hazards to cause doubt and hesitation in the golfers mind sprung from that experience. If he had not gone to medical school and then to South Africa who knows what theories might have informed his design, or if he would have gone into the field of golf architecture. Remember that apart from the last few years of his life, MacKenzie was a self-admitted 'hacker' on the course.

[Anthony Butler]

Certainly having gone to Cornell is worth a bit of respect from potential clients -- I couldn't tell you how much exactly, but some -- and that postgraduate award I got from Cornell has been written about 500 times over the years, so in that respect my college education has been a great boon to my ability to find clients and attract attention.

So true... My experience since I've been working in the US indicates that by the time you find out an Ivy League grad maybe just as dumb as the rest of us, they've already got the job + a couple of promotions.

Then, of course, there are the handsome, self-effacing braniacs you learn to resent from a distance.

[Bob_Huntley]

Well if we're going to get into the old guys, Macdonald went to prep school in St. Andrews and Tillinghast went to St. Andrews University, I believe.  They didn't study golf architecture (in class).

Probably the most significant case of an education 'helping' an archtect in their design profession in the early days was Dr. Alister MacKenzie.

He was a medico in the Boar War in Sth. Africa, and he noticed that the percentage of injuries/deaths suffered by British troops in open field battle against the Afrikaaners was much higher. After he got out of the medical tent and into the battlefield he noticed that the Afrikaaners made much better use of the ground and surrounding terrain to camouflage their positions and troop strength.

Anthony,

MacKenzie was able to observe things that the Boers knew and the British Generals did not, or could not understand. Their arrogance and ignorance of war apart from set pieces was astounding. The Boers thoroughly out generalled the British in the first half of the war and it wasn't until Kitchener introduced the concentration camps, imprisoning the Boer women and children, that Boer resistance weakened.

It did not take a genius to observe that the Boers were fighting on their home territory, were better marksmen than the Tommy and had shorter lines of supply. All in all, this was Britain's Viet Nam.  

I keep reading of MacKenzie's epiphany in South Africa but feel that his genius would have shown through, even if he had stayed in Berkshire.


Bob

[Ron Farris]

The Pete Dye Graduate School was a part of my education, but only after studying with Brian Silva as my college professor.  Brian taught me Height of Instrament, but his was always set lower than everyone else .  No worries though the elevations of dirt are what they are until nuked by bulldozers, track hoes, and the like.   I learned an awful lot from having 6 geotech engineers scrutinize every move we made while working in Japan for the Dyes.

How do you make a Pete Dye railroad tie wall withstand a 5.5 earthquake?  Geotech thought 2 feet of concrete behind the wall would help but in all likelyhood it would still move.  He was right.  

No doubt the best education will be in the field!  

[Dan Herrmann]

Jesus Dan that was so long ago and so much has happened since then that its influence is totally irrelevant now.  

Same for me in my field.  I graduated 22 years ago - I don't think I've called on college material for about 20 years

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

I think my LA degree did help me learn the basics, but even the grading is different for golf courses than the typical residential or commercial project other LA types get into.

I learned more in my apprencticeship with Killian and Nugent - a mix of office, field supervion and actual construction than I ever did in college, but it was a great base.

[Jay Flemma]

Boy, people that come out of Nuge's office do very very well!

[Dan Herrmann]

Thanks for the very insightful answers.  I've often wondered how much they can teach in school versus what you can learn in the field.

I thought the information on MacKenzie was priceless for its historical insight.