Kikyu..Riveria & Bel-Air CC??

[Steve Lapper]

Okay, here is a question that has stood long in my mind..

   Is any course that allows kikyu to grow rampant everywhere but the fairway and greens inherently unfair?

   At both BACC and Riv., that weed substitutes for rough and greenside turf. In many places, a shot that missed it's target by inches results in a instant playing penalty. More often than not, few running chips or pitches are able to accurately track their intentions. Lob shots are the short shot du jour. Faces of bunkers often bury balls and never release them back into the beach.
   Would it be fair if every inch of greenside turf was high fescue or cabbage? Every inch of rough, raw velcro? Would Cypress Point look as good if the roughs there were replaced by all iceplant?
   Any LA player will likely pick LACC over Riveria for just that kikyu reason. The pros hate it as well and grumble that is is not fair, although we know they whine about anything less than perfect.
    I have watched round after round I've played at those places balloon in score directly due to that weed.

  Thoughts? ? ?

[Matt_Ward]

slapper:

Count me on the list with those who can't stand thw weed at Riviera and Bel-Air. Matter of fact throw in zoysia as well. Any grass that prevents the bounce of the ball is a surface I'll take a pass on playing.

Although I do love the routings and layouts of the courses you mentioned.

[SDZ]

Bel-Air CC is currently installing a new irrigation system which has resulted in the front nine being closed through December with work on the back 9 starting in January so the membership always has 9 holes open.  Part of the project includes eradicating the kikuyu grass that has encroached on the golf course.  The superintendent, Brian Sullivan, has a good grasp of the original artistry of George Thomas at Bel-Air (he has an original picture of the Mae West hole, #11, on top of his desk) and I think he will continue to do some nice little things to bring back some of the original design integrity.

[he ghost of thomas]

i'm sorry to be rude, but faux water hazards, planting tons of trees, blinding people with bleached traps and tacking on goofball back tees is not restoration, it's sillyness.  kikuya or no kikuya, bel-air is a mess, with little place for golf to actually be played. they add on stuff to the course like they have an inferioritycomplex. plastic surgery galour. great grill though.

[brad_miller]

Didn't a prior archie recomend the removal of the "weed" at Riveria?

[Steve Lapper]

Brad,

As you are no doubt aware, my limited memory ability fails me in knowing of past archie's thoughts...

 I too love the routing and layouts of the Riv, but the weed really knocks so many points off my valuemeter.

[Bob_Huntley]

I was a member at Riviera for a few years in the early seventies and found that that the noxious weed gave a wonderful lie for any shot. One had to pitch rather than chip, but on the whole the grass presented no grave problem that a reasonably competent player could not surmount.

Riviera was a delight to play and to live adjacent to the course was closer to heaven than one could imagine.

[A_Clay_Man]

I'll stick up for K squared, too. I found the grass to be not only fair, but challenging, too. But what the heck do I know? I only played over a thousand rounds on the stuff in the last 7 years. So maybe my limited experience disqualifies me. I can see how a first time or infrequent player on the stuff would be flabbergasted when every shot is miscalculated. But, whats the difference? Adaptation of ball flight angles and creativity are neccesary to "figure out" the beast.

Oh yeah, Ice plant can be beautiful, too.

Rancho Park is all KK, and the seniors use to eat that place up.

Besides, the KK in January-Feb. when they play the nissan is suppose to be dormant and when KK is dormant you have to adapt again because bounces are possible and predictable.

[Glen_Fergo]

Ithink that Kikuyu just takes some getting use to! Most of the courses in Sydney (OZ) have a clay base so that it is almost impossible to get bermuda (we call it cooch) to grow, the climate also causes problems.

I agree you need to be a good pitcher of the ball rather than a chipper.

Kept well manicured the lies on fairways are every bit as good as bermuda although the rough can be very difficult if grown certain ways. One thing is that with long rough the ball doesn't settle to bottom like bermuda.

AS long as they is a hole at the end I'll play anything, its all about the challenge.

[Steve Lapper]

Let me clarify the nature of my post:

I am not, and never, opposed to the challenge inherent to any links. The routing at Riv and the nature of BACC are both worthy anytime the chance avails itself. I wouldn't mind the KK if it was consistent or fair.

I had two balls completely hit in play (one in the lip of a greenside bunker, one in the greenside rough) that completely disappeared! Both time I went from what should have been, at worst a bogey, optimistically a par, to a double or triple bogey.
That is simply unfair and illegitimate in my estimation. One should pay some price for an errant or mishit approach, but not suffer the ignomy of a totally buried, and worse than plugged, lie?
  I just think that at the end of the day, the KK detracts from those tracks and does a disservice to challenge.

[A_Clay_Man]

Slapper- I find your last line to be confusing. In relaying your predicament you state how difficult it was to get up and down. Then you say the KK detracts from the challenge. Which is it? too hard and too penal, or just too thick?

I believe the word "Unfair" is a real problem in golf. It is so subjective and I find is usually uttered immediatly following a poor shot. Now, if you felt that a places maintenance practices throughout the course are such, why would you play there? ANd if you were to have to qualify for some event and the venue was this place would you decline the opportunity because of your belief?

[Bob_Huntley]

Slapper:

You were inches away from a good shot but were penalized rather badly. What's the diference between your Riviera experience and mine at the par three seventh at Cypress, where I hit what I thought was a brilliant shot, hit the green, but was a foot short of the ideal and finshed twenty five yards down the slope in front of the green?

Does that make Cypress unfair?

[Jimmy Yahnis]

I was fortunate to play Riviera in September, and it was one of the greatest experiences in my golf life. While it may not be perfect, at least 99% of the courses in this world are not as good as Riviera.

Since I live in the South, the kikyu grass had me puzzled. The member I played with suggested I play the ball like sand shots, using a blast technique. I did not get used to it during one round of golf, but felt like I could learn the shots in time. I view the kikyu as a penalty for hitting errant shots. Did I think some of it was unreasonable, yes, but not in an overwhelming manner. I will go back to Riviera anytime, kikyu or not.  

[Steve Lapper]

What's the diference between your Riviera experience and mine at the par three seventh at Cypress, where I hit what I thought was a brilliant shot, hit the green, but was a foot short of the ideal and finshed twenty five yards down the slope in front of the green?

Does that make Cypress unfair?

Simply put, the design of the hole clearly warned you of the safe (or higher margin of error) side to miss on. The fall off of the CPGC 7th on the right dictates that you avoid that side less anything other than a perfect shot will result in a tough second shot. That is fair because, IMHO, it is clear and obvious that the right hand side offers a severe risk/reward ratio. That ratio is also substantially different due to the distance of the shot (likely a mid-to-short iron)
 The KK at Bel-Air (specifically to the left of the green on #4) is unfair because I landed in a FLAT OPEN SECTION, just to the left of the hole (with a long four-iron second shot). The grass's traits and the subsequent buried lie made it unfair. That could be a result of bad maintenance, but no other area nearby looked any different.
  I would play anywhere, anytime (after-all, would one pass on Pine Valley if your accuracy or sand game were missing??).
I just feel very strongly that the KK diminishes the value of Riveria and BACC because it is so erractic and often unnecssarily penal for balls that are otherwise decently hit.

   Would Muirfield, RCD, or Shinnecock be so highly regarded if all the greenside areas were knee-high fescue or 6 inch bluegrass? That is my point. Nearly every architect of any time would leave some room around the greens, especially on long par4's & 5's, for some type of recovery shot that would have some form of consistency. Penal doesn't offend me, only gross inconsistency and surfaces close in and regularly in play that permit no variety of shotmaking.....no ground game is sensible from the KK.