[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

Nicklaus was one of the longest hitters of his day, able to reach # 13 and # 15 in two most of the time.

Who else shot 29 or 30 on the back nine to win the Masters ?

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick, everybody at that level has been able to reach those par 5s in two for decades, part of MacKenzie's design concept I think.  I don't have all the records but I doubt Nicklaus is the only one to go low on the back nine Sunday to win.  What did Faldo shoot to nuke Norman?  

[Doug Siebert]

Bill,

Do you seriously believe that #7 will require middle irons for the pros at only 450?  Everyone is bitching about how the original intent has been ruined, but they will still be hitting wedges or short irons at most to get home.  That's probably one of the few holes where the original intent is pretty much intact!  Even if they took a couple clubs more for it, where's the harm, considering all the other holes where they are hitting much less club than was originally intended, even after all the lengthening?

[Tony Ristola]

Doug,
I agree, and I'll be watching to see what clubs they're hitting in there.

The hole sure looks narrow with all the pecker poles they planted.
http://www.masters.org/en_US/course/walking07g.html

Bill:
I think the idea was for guys who hit fine tee shots to put themselves in a position to risk going for it. It wasn't the gimme it has turned into today.

I think back to Curtis Strange hitting good tee shots (he was running on all cylinders and then a couple borrowed ones after starting with 80) and attacking with fairway woods (and failing). Doubt he'd have a problem reaching the green from there today. It'd be interesting to see how many more yards he would get from his tee shots today too; would be able to compare if he hadn't dumped it into the soup.

Norman imploded in 1996; shot 78 while Faldo shot 67. Norman had a 6 shot lead at the start of the final round. Had planned to explore Amsterdam but made the mistake of turning on the tube and finding the final round on. Instead of going out on the town, the evening was spent watching the Norman train wreck.

Pat:
11 club set won't fly?
I guess mandating clubs with no grooves doesn't have a chance either?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, everybody at that level has been able to reach those par 5s in two for decades, part of MacKenzie's design concept I think.  

Bill,  I remember when players used to attempt to go for the green that they were using 3-woods (Sarazen being a famous effort)  Nicklaus, who hit his long irons high, had a huge advantage.

When Tiger Woods was hitting 9-iron-wedge into that green, it sent a signal that things are different.

Without the added length almost every PGA Tour pro would be hitting irons or high irons into those greens, and that was NEVER the intent.

I don't have all the records but I doubt Nicklaus is the only one to go low on the back nine Sunday to win.  

Well then, get the records.

What did Faldo shoot to nuke Norman?

I think it was what Norman shot that determined the outcome, and not that Faldo went super low, but, perhaps someone more familiar with that round can supply the details.  

[jeffwarne]

Gary Player-30 on back nine in 1978 for 64

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gary Player-30 on back nine in 1978 for 64

Jeff,

Was that on Sunday ?

And, did he win the tournament ?

[jeffwarne]

Yes it was sunday and yes he won.
birdied 7 out of the last holes-walked through all his shots on his followthrough.
Played with Seve -finished an hour ahead of the leaders.

[George Pazin]

I don't think Jack ever hit more than a 7 iron into the greens on par 4s for his entire career, unless there was terrible weather (till now, obviously). He even mentioned that he hit 9 irons into 15 more than a few times.

Mac and Bobby designed the course to be fun and challenging to both the member and the pro (read their own words about the course if you don't believe me). I believe it was Bobby in particular that wanted the par 5s to be reachable, and I believe it was the Good Doctor who felt a well designed course should yield low scores to superior play.

Jack broke the record in the early to mid 60s, and Floyd matched it in the mid 70s. The powers that be at that time had the courage to not just tear apart the course and try to engineer a score.

Hootie has achieved great success in his personal life, kudos to him for that, and I applaud his stance on the privacy issue in terms of club membership, but he (and whomever else is in charge of the course) needs to set aside his own ego and leave the course alone, for at least a few years. He (and again, I'm assuming it's he, if it's they, whatever) need to learn more about the original design of the course. They may not mean to, they may have the "best intentions", whatever that means, but he/they are inserting their own egos too much and leaving their own mark on the course.

If it were me, I'd at least let a few years go by to see what the impact of the changes truly are. Augusta has a legacy of change, true, but it seems to me that the pace of change of late has been nothing short of breathtaking - or idiotic - depending on your point of view.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I think it was what Norman shot that determined the outcome, and not that Faldo went super low, but, perhaps someone more familiar with that round can supply the details.

Faldo went 34-33 that day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin Reilly,

Thanks for clarifying that round.

Shooting 29 or 30 on the back nine at ANGC on Sunday to win the tournament is more myth then reality.

It rarely happens.

What few are willing to concede is that a difficult back nine will make it harder to limp home to victory.

In the past, could a golfer cruise home on the back nine without taking many chances, and post a decent score to win the tournament ?

You have to view the back nine in the context of risk-reward, and that low and high scores can be shot, which can determine the outcome of the tournament.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't think Jack ever hit more than a 7 iron into the greens on par 4s for his entire career, unless there was terrible weather (till now, obviously). He even mentioned that he hit 9 irons into 15 more than a few times.

George, no offense, but you don't know what you're talking about, or are confused with Tiger's incredible performance.[/color]

Mac and Bobby designed the course to be fun and challenging to both the member and the pro (read their own words about the course if you don't believe me). I believe it was Bobby in particular that wanted the par 5s to be reachable, and I believe it was the Good Doctor who felt a well designed course should yield low scores to superior play.
Neither one of them wanted golfers to hit wedges into the par 5's for their second shots.  And, they both spoke about the half holes in the context of play in 1934, not 2006.[/color]

Jack broke the record in the early to mid 60s, and Floyd matched it in the mid 70s. The powers that be at that time had the courage to not just tear apart the course and try to engineer a score.

That's because they weren't hitting the ball 350 yards off the tee with wide fairways, no rough and bermuda greens.[/color]

Hootie has achieved great success in his personal life, kudos to him for that, and I applaud his stance on the privacy issue in terms of club membership, but he (and whomever else is in charge of the course) needs to set aside his own ego and leave the course alone, for at least a few years. He (and again, I'm assuming it's he, if it's they, whatever) need to learn more about the original design of the course. They may not mean to, they may have the "best intentions", whatever that means, but he/they are inserting their own egos too much and leaving their own mark on the course.
Do you think the Masters would have retained its flavor and stature if every golfer was hitting driver wedge into every hole, including the par 5's.

ANGC was lengthened and altered LONG before Hootie came on the scene.

Did Hootie move and redesign # 7 green ?
Did Hootie move and redesign # 16 green ?
Did Hootie move and redesign # 10 green ?

Stop blaming Hootie for trying to keep the golf course competitive.

And, how has he changed the golf course for the members ?[/color]

If it were me, I'd at least let a few years go by to see what the impact of the changes truly are. Augusta has a legacy of change, true, but it seems to me that the pace of change of late has been nothing short of breathtaking - or idiotic - depending on your point of view.

Unlike you, Hootie chose not to fiddle while Rome burned.[/color]

[Bill_McBride]

Doug, re: #7, they moved the tee back 95 yards but didn't widen the alley way between all those trees.  So the players will be hitting mid irons after hitting fairway woods off the tee.  I don't think the current "flogging" trend of driver off every tee and make par out of the rough works when the "rough" is trees.  As a result, the approach shots will be mid irons to 7  or 8 irons to a small shallow green designed for wedge approaches.  MacKenzie's design intent is lost.  

Good thing the powers that be haven't started fooling with #3 yet!  That's the other marvelous short par 4.

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick, everybody at that level has been able to reach those par 5s in two for decades, part of MacKenzie's design concept I think.  

Bill,  I remember when players used to attempt to go for the green that they were using 3-woods (Sarazen being a famous effort)  Nicklaus, who hit his long irons high, had a huge advantage.

When Tiger Woods was hitting 9-iron-wedge into that green, it sent a signal that things are different.

Without the added length almost every PGA Tour pro would be hitting irons or high irons into those greens, and that was NEVER the intent.

I don't have all the records but I doubt Nicklaus is the only one to go low on the back nine Sunday to win.  

Well then, get the records.

What did Faldo shoot to nuke Norman?

I think it was what Norman shot that determined the outcome, and not that Faldo went super low, but, perhaps someone more familiar with that round can supply the details.  

That's why I said it's not a problem to shove the tees back -- although that can't go on forever! -- but it is a problem to me to change the design characteristic of the hole the way they have at #7.

I don't remember (at the ripe old age of 64) when any of the players hit woods to #15.  It's been 3 or 4 iron or layup since the tournaments of the 70's.  We didn't see much on TV before then.  The tee shots on #13 and #15 had to be hit to the perfect spot to make long iron approaches possible, which made these great holes.

The last couple of years' set up has made the exciting back nine finishes once again a reality.  The few years before that were sloggish and not fun to watch.

[Tony Ristola]

Bill,
Let's accept your argument about the pro's coming in with mid-irons. If the pro's can't get it on the green with short mid-irons then the hole must be totally unplayable for the members at the speed and firmness they maintain the course for them.

Hard argument to accept.

[Bill_McBride]

Tony, the members are still playing the hole at 320.  The brutal reality is that all these changes are being made for the best 200 players in the world.  What an argument for a rolled back golf ball!

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't remember (at the ripe old age of 64) when any of the players hit woods to #15.  It's been 3 or 4 iron or layup since the tournaments of the 70's.  We didn't see much on TV before then.  

I believe that the Masters was first telecast in 1955 and that in 1956 a camera or cameras were added to # 15, so you missed a good 15 years until the 70's rolled around.

Three woods were the club of choice for many who chose to go for the green.

Didn't Crenshaw, the year he won, opt to lay up rather than go for it with his wood ?

The tee shots on #13 and #15 had to be hit to the perfect spot to make long iron approaches possible, which made these great holes.

I might agree on # 13, but, on # 15 the entire fairway, except for that part blocked by the trees on the left was an acceptable spot to go for the green.

A fader of the ball has a big advantage over a golfer who draws the ball, when approaching the 15th green.

The last couple of years' set up has made the exciting back nine finishes once again a reality.  The few years before that were sloggish and not fun to watch.

I don't think that had anything to do with the golf course.
The weather and players tend to dictate that more than the course set up.

Especially when you consider that the set up on Sunday is pretty much the same, year in and year out.

And, the same might be said for Saturday.

Bill, maybe Georgia should follow the example set by OHIO.[/color]

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